From Catholic News Service:
When it comes to celebrating the liturgy, “we should never fight,” Msgr. Guido Marini told choir members, directors and priests. “Otherwise, we distort the very nature” of what the people of God should be doing during the Mass, which is seeking to be “one body before the Lord.”
Pope Francis has insisted that liturgical music for papal liturgies “never go beyond the rite” and force celebrants and the assembly to wait for the singing to finish before proceeding on to the next moment of the Mass, [Marini] said.
Yeah, I’ve seen Pope Francis, instead of waiting it out, cut off music when it dragged on, especially during the Liturgy of the Eucharist.
Also, this was an interesting bit of advice re. cases of disagreement between priests and music directors:
Acknowledging the difficulty of such a situation, he said he sided with the priest… if no conclusion or final point is reached, then “perhaps it is better also to come out of it momentarily defeated and wait for a better time rather than generate divisions and conflict that do no good,” he said to applause.
With which I generally agree, but which I must add is easier said than done.
I also quite liked this from Marini: “We should never fight.” It makes him sound kinda naive, almost innocent, which is sorta sweet actually.
@Elisabeth Ahn:
If the music needs to be “cut off,” maybe it is the wrong music to be done at that particular point of the Mass.
I sometimes participate in Masses when I feel it is really a musical performance with some of the Eucharist thrown in between musical selections. Sometimes I have seen presiders wait 5 minutes before the choir finished the “Offertory Song.”
View from the pew
Regarding: “… “we should never fight,”…”
– True; peace and communication work well with each other.The choir director’s job is always more important than any disagreement.
– However document the outre requests if indeed it is the presbyter or deacons acting out that this is ‘my way or the highway’, rather than they only want to do their favourite thing.
– Be generous and patient with the newly ordained.
– In almost all cases eventually the difficult clerics transfer out and the people of God remain with their choir.
Msgr Marini’s apparent default resolution to avoid conflict is very Roman: Do What Father Wants.
To echo Mr Jordan: priests come and go, but it’s the local congregation that is left to mop up any mess in the interim.
Ordo Romanus Primus indicates that the pontiff directs when the chant starts and ends. (para 40&50) An example of liturgical continuity?
I am with Msgr Marini on this, but not because I think you should simply defer to the priest. Rather, as I read the article, I viewed his talk as gently suggesting that as hard choirs and musicians work, and as much of a contribution as they make to the Mass it really isn’t about them, and I am not sure that is widely understood in music circles. Sometimes the music is just a distraction from what is really happening. I am in favor of music in Mass; I am a cantor; but sometimes we see musicians that seem to think “it’s showtime, folks!”
@Charles Day:
excellent point re: “showtime” that I remind my choir of each Sunday before we head to the loft. That “we are there to praise God, and help the congregation praise God”. This is exactly why I’m not a fan of “praise & worship” Masses in general and with the band up front specifically.
A couple of views from the music desk. The music should not bring the liturgy to a standstill.
Anyone who plays regularly at weddings and funerals will know that “appropriateness” is a very elastic concept.
I have been to Masses where classical settings of the Ordinary are sung. These presumably work ok when the Mass in the EF is celebrated, but not in the OF.
A particular problem is the Sanctus/Benedictus. In the EF this is split and the Sanctus covers the Celebrant’s reciting the Canon up to the Consecration, then the Benedictus is sung after the elevation of the Chalice to cover the rest of the Canon. With the OF we just have to stand and wait till the music has finished before the Celebrant can proceed. This simply does not help the rhythm of the Liturgy.
By and large one is ok with the 16th Century polyphonic settings, as these arose in a context of not allowing the music to be too florid. But the Mozart, etc, is too lengthy, and however beautiful (and I love them !) they just don’t fit well with the OF.
AG.
@Alan Griffiths:
If you compare the Missa de Angelis with the Spatzenmesse (K 220), the length of the Kyrie, Gloria and Credo are very similiar, shorter in fact if you compare a sprightly rendering of the Mozart with a lugubrious performance of the plainchant. The Sanctus/Benedictus is about a minute longer, and the Agnus Dei is about 90 seconds longer. And an average performance of the Mozart is longer than Marty Haugen’s Mass of Creation or Christopher Walker’s Celtic Mass by only a minute or so. So I wouldn’t agree that Mozart is necessarily too long. I don’t know how long it took for Archbishop Colloredo to celebrate a High Mass, but we find that Mozart is too short normally to cover the ritual, except for the Coronation Mass and the Colloredo Mass (K 339).
@Fr Richard Duncan CO:
However the ability for everyone to join in singing De Angelis is the significant difference. Not sitting/standing and waiting, but singing their part.
@Alan Johnson:
I am conscious that the question of “active participation” has been discussed extensively on this blog and elsewhere, and I have no wish to set this hare running again! But it is possible to become prayerfully engaged in a piece of music, even if you are not taking part in it yourself. Writing of Mozart, Pope Benedict said:
“Every time I listen to his music I cannot help but return in memory to my parish church, where on feast days, when I was a boy, one of his “Masses” resounded: I felt that a ray of beauty from heaven reached my heart, and I continue to experience this sensation also today every time I listen to this great, dramatic and serene meditation on death. Everything is in perfect harmony in Mozart, every note, every musical phrase is as it is and could not be otherwise; even those opposed are reconciled; it is called “Mozart’sche Heiterkeit” (Mozart’s serenity), which envelops everything, every moment. It is a gift of the Grace of God, but it is also the fruit of Mozart’s lively faith that, especially in sacred music, is able to reflect the luminous response of divine love, which gives hope, even when human life is lacerated by suffering and death.”
Now Mozart is not to everyone’s taste, but I think the point is well made, and the principle applies to any other piece of music that a choir sings, whether it is the Missa de Angelis, Palestrina’s Missa Papae Marcelli,, Gounod’s Messe de St Cecile or a vernacular piece by a modern liturgical composer. Earlier this year, I did a wedding for a Nigerian couple who did a danced offertory procession to a Nigerian song. I couldn’t join in with this, any more than the Bach, Handel and, yes, the Mozart which they had chosen for other parts of the liturgy. But I found it all equally uplifting.
I was in Saint Mark’s, Venice, once when the splendid choir were singing a lengthy Mass setting. It sounded like Monteverdi. The music was magnificent. The Priest intoned the Gloria, then he and the Deacon and ‘Subdeacon’ sat down. I immediately had visions of a servant entering bringing coffee and croissants and the Sunday Times to occupy them until the singers had finished.
AG.
Sometimes I despair over the effort to justify the performance of classical music as part of the liturgy as something beautiful. The Paschal Mystery is not lovely or eloquent, nor is it able to be considered a work of beauty. The love of this splendid musical form is for many only an acquired taste, but in centuries past it did indeed inspire the souls of many faithful. But offering and celebrating the Sacred Mysteries is not the same as attending a concert while Mass is going on. This would be true regardless of the style of music, but the singing of the ordinary belongs to the assembly even when aided by choristers. No priest would think to sit while the choir and perhaps even fine instruments perform the Mass of Creation. Priests who advocate musical performances during the offering of Mass are wanting to turn back the clock to a classical era when Priests performed the Mass while worshippers looked on as spectators.
@Jack Feehily:
I do think that we can distinguish between those parts of the Mass that would seem to belong to the people, in the sense that they ought to participate vocally, and those where they might participate by listening. I’ve only been to a few celebrations that used “Masses” that were meant to be listened to and I must say that I found simply listening to the Sanctus highly incongruous after the exhortation to join *our* voices with angels and archangels. In contrast, listening during the Agnus Dei or Gloria seems slightly less incongruous and listening during the preparation of the gifts seems not incongruous at all.
As to the idiom of “classical music” (which really means anything not pop, folk, or jazz) being an acquired taste, I would only say that people will never acquire it if they are not exposed to it, and if they are exposed to it during Mass they might actually come to find it a vehicle of prayer. I didn’t listen to classical music growing up and didn’t have much taste for it, but hearing Allegri’s Miserere one Ash Wednesday when I was in college moved me profoundly and opened me up to the idea that this music might be worth listening to.
And as to the Paschal Mystery not being a work of beauty, perhaps it is just some residual Balthasarianism in me, but I would argue that it is supremely beautiful, though of course the cross does force us to recalibrate out measure of beauty.
Perhaps those “cutting off” music at a given time (the gradual comes to mind) are the ones that have the misunderstanding…
Is the text of Msgr. Marini’s presentation online anywhere? Thus far, my attempts with google have failed to find it.
It’s here now:
http://giubileocorali.com/website/images/doc/relazioni/Marini.pdf
This looks mighty interesting indeed; he’s quoting G.K. Chesterton, among other things!
Wish my Italian were better, so that I could read/understand it better[/sigh].
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