Millennials and the Mass

As a member of the millennial generation I often reflect on the future of liturgy and religion among my generation. Here at Pray Tell and elsewhere on the blogosphere, countless words have been spilled on the topic of the future of religion, especially among the millennial generation. The picture that has been painted is often bleak.

One of the challenges facing religion among millennials appears to center around authenticity. My generation is critical of established institutions, and an institution rapidly loses a great deal of authority and respect when it appears to be inauthentic. It is Pope Francis’ authenticity that has captured the hearts of my generation.

Living in Belgium for the past year, I have seen what can happen to the Church when society no longer sees it as authentic. The Church in Belgium appears to be taking its last gasp of breath, or at least so I thought before attending the Easter Vigil at the cathedral in Antwerp.

As I was sitting during the readings at the Easter Vigil, I was astonished to find that the church was rather full, and the majority of the chairs were occupied by many young men and women who came to Mass together in groups. For me, it was a sign of hope for the Church in Belgium and in the West more generally. The liturgy was wonderful and the cathedral was filled with youthfulness and joy. As I left the cathedral I told a friend how wonderful it was to see so many young people choose to come to the Easter Vigil. He attributed it to the personality of Bishop Johan Bonny. Bishop Bonny is like the Pope Francis of Belgium, and through his openness and willingness to engage the messiness of the modern world, he is viewed as being humble and authentic. His authenticity has lent an air of relevance to the Church in Belgium.

Coming on the heels of my experience at the Easter Vigil, a friend sent me an email highlighting a new resource for catechizing teens on the beauty and importance of the Mass. Ascension Press has created a new resource called “Altaration: The Mystery of the Mass Revealed.” While the content appears to be rather traditional, the delivery seems to utilize an evangelical style. The trailer for this new resource can be found below.

The clip is an interesting contrast to my experience at the Easter Vigil with Bishop Bonny. However, despite their difference in style and even content, both the Easter Vigil with Bishop Bonny and Ascension Press’ new resource “Altaration” seem to be cutting to the heart of the problem: a perceived lack of authenticity in the Church today, especially among millennials. Only when the Church responds to the concerns of the modern world will it be perceived as authentic.

Reflecting on the trailer for “Altaration” I began to wonder: how should we be catechizing the millennial generation? How do we make the Church more authentic and then convey that authenticity to a generation that seems to have an allergic reaction to the Church? Perhaps adopting a more evangelical style of delivery along the lines of “Altaration” is all that is needed. However, I think it will take more than just a change in the Church’s delivery of its message to make my generation see the Church as authentic. This has been confirmed by my experience of listening to the faithful in Belgium talk about how important Bishop Bonny’s message of inclusivity has been for preserving the relevance of the Church in Belgium.

The Church today is being confronted by the millennial generation, and they are demanding that the Church prove its relevance in the modern world. To do that, all millennials, traditional and progressive alike, are demanding authenticity from the Church in its message, in its clergy, and in its engagement with the modern world. However, how each millennial defines authenticity in regard to the Church’s message, clergy, and engagement with the modern world varies greatly between traditional and progressive millennials.

Having reflected on the contrast between the Easter Vigil with Bishop Bonny and Ascension Press’ new resource “Altaration,” I am left with a few questions for our readers:

Does your experience with millennials resonate with my experience? How are you in your ministry working to overcome the Church’s perceived lack of authenticity among millennials? What tools, like “Altaration,” do you find helpful in ministering to millennials? What concrete steps can the Church take to become more authentic today?

Please comment below.

Nathan Chase

Nathan P. Chase is Assistant Professor of Liturgical and Sacramental Theology at Aquinas Institute of Theology in St. Louis, MO. He has contributed a number of articles to the field of liturgical studies, including pieces on liturgy in the early Church, initiation, the Eucharist, inculturation, and the Western Non-Roman Rites, in particular the Hispano-Mozarabic tradition. His first book The Homiliae Toletanae and the Theology of Lent and Easter was published in 2020. His second monograph, published in 2023, is titled The Anaphoral Tradition in the ‘Barcelona Papyrus.’

Please leave a reply.

Comments

39 responses to “Millennials and the Mass”

  1. Peter Kwasniewski

    I realize that folks at PT don’t necessarily like to be reminded of this, but a lot of young people are finding authenticity in the traditional Latin liturgy — because it’s very obviously serious, contemplative, transcendent, and different from the secular — some of the qualities our culture is most lacking and for which the human heart hungers.

  2. Scott Pluff

    When I worked with undergraduates at Saint Louis University, I heard many of the same complaints against the church over and over. They disagreed with the church’s positions on homosexuality, sexual ethics, the ordination of women, and other progressive causes. Several students expressed their anger over a lack of inclusive language in liturgy and one young woman announced she was leaving the church over that issue. Some of them stay, perhaps loosely, within the church to hope/work for change, while others have left because of these issues. From their perspective, the church is LESS loving and compassionate than the world at large.

    I can remember two students over ten years of our course who spoke out their conservative/traditional views on liturgy, but a large majority strongly argued for progressive/liberal reforms. It was a clear majority, even as I encouraged them to understand the positive elements of different expressions of worship.

    We asked them to attend Mass at different parishes around town including a Tridentine High Mass, an African-American Gospel Mass, a LifeTeen Mass, a Spanish language Mass, and a Pontifical Mass (OF) at the cathedral. They were generally drawn to the LifeTeen and ethnic Masses and generally disliked the more traditional liturgies in either English or Latin. I didn’t think to frame our discussions on perceived authenticity, but I suspect that they would have found the contemporary idioms more authentic and the traditional expressions as empty rituals and meaningless pomp. I was always hoping they would experience traditional worship and gain a new appreciation, but that was rarely the case.

  3. Rita Ferrone Avatar
    Rita Ferrone

    The story about the Vigil is fascinating, Nathan. Any idea whether this phenomenon (lots of young people at the Antwerp cathedral) occurs at other occasions? Was it spontaneous or organized? That is one big cathedral. Seven aisles, if I am remembering correctly. To fill it would take some doing — I am impressed!

    Less impressed by the video. The lone priest at the altar. Just like the “basketball” Barron vocations video.

    1. Nathan Chase

      @Rita Ferrone – comment #3:
      I have heard that in general the cathedral tends to be quite popular throughout the year.

      Just to clarify one thing, the cathedral no longer has seven aisles. They now only have seating in the central nave.

  4. Todd Orbitz

    I find this incredibly disheartening.

    People drawn to personality, rather than the Mass? Whatever.

    The writer was right. If that’s what it takes in Belgium, the Church is breathing its last breath there.

    1. David O'Sullivan

      @Todd Orbitz – comment #4:
      it is not unusual for people to be attracted to a new way of hearing the Gospel, learning about Christ…there have always been preachers who can bring others to the Church…we should rejoice that it can happen…not so much the messenger, more the message itself

  5. Karl Liam Saur

    Joy is the best evangelizer. (Joy, not happiness. They are different.)

    The thing about joy is that, while it can be infectious, it cannot readily be elicited formulaically. (So you are likely to be foiled in trying to the liturgy into a thing that better elicits it.)

    1. Jordan Zarembo

      @Karl Liam Saur – comment #5:

      If this movie gets at least one person to go to Mass on Sunday regularly, then it is successful. I know that at as a younger man I would not have been interested in this film. I would find it rather potemkin.

      My only concern about this trailer is its emphasis on “love”. Christ’s agapē in the Mass is a profoundly polyvalent love, both metaphysical and eschatological at once. This trailer veers close to a perhaps humanistic and sentimentalized “love”, which gives that lovebomb high but ends up with perhaps an unpleasant aftertaste when a person realizes that he or she is not really ready to ascend to the more esoteric aspects of the Mass. “Love” is not the love of the triune God. So, why does this trailer try to fob off God in this way?

      I must disagree with Karl. The best evangelizer is a concentrated reflection of the entry of Christ into the temporal at Mass to abide and sanctify his creation. It is in reflection where we become receptive to the answers of truth.

  6. Bruce Janiga

    Todd Orbitz : I find this incredibly disheartening. People drawn to personality, rather than the Mass?

    If you compare the sayings of Jesus in the Synoptic Gospels and John you discover that in John the words of Jesus are more theological. But the synoptics present a Jesus who spoke using short, memorable aphorisms and parables. The Johannine Jesus speaks in discourses and would probably be less effective in gathering people around himself to hear the Word.
    Personality often draws people together. But it is communication that builds relationships. You have to draw someone to you first before you can share your message. Jesus used teaching techniques popular in his day. And discipleship was something that developed over time. People “began to believe in him” John says.
    Did most people tune into Fulton Sheen at first because of his message or his personality/television persona? Having a magnetic personality you can attract people and then offer them your message.
    Remember, Jesus preached, healed and spent much time with his disciples, building up a relationship before they celebrated the First Eucharist.

  7. Bruce Janiga

    Jordan Zarembo : @Karl Liam Saur – comment #5: My only concern about this trailer is its emphasis on “love”.
    I watched the video twice and only heard the word “love” once: “God loves you”. I don’t view this as an emphasis on love. The word “saints” was mentioned more frequently. In fact I think its imagery and script brought out the sense of mystery, tradition, transcendence (opening image of a vested priest swinging a thurible) in a way that would resonate with some teens.
    Having worked with teens for the last 30+ years I think it would be worth considering this tool for evangelizing.
    Jesus doesn’t wait for his disciples to come to him as a rule, he goes out and meets them where they are (fishing, collecting taxes, etc.) and calls them to a new life. We too have to meet people where they are.

    1. Jordan Zarembo

      @Bruce Janiga – comment #10:

      We all strive to be saints. From what I know of reading saints’ lives, the saints understood very well the awesome and true love which envelops a Mass and the entire liturgy of the Church. Perhaps the movie brings this out. I don’t know. It’s probably limited showing, so I don’t think I can go to my local movie theater for this one.

      I’d say relatively few viewers have ever seen a thurible up close, as many attend parishes which do not use incense or use it very rarely. (Don’t turn this into a OF/EF squabble — even before the Council some parishes celebrated low Mass all the time). The challenge of the movie, which i hope it covers well, is how the accidentals of the Mass (such as the incensation rite) are related to sacrifice and the paschal mystery. It’d be a stroke of genius if this gap can be bridged.

  8. Sean Keeler

    The most salient comment in the article is your friend’s:

    He attributed it to the personality of Bishop Johan Bonny. Bishop Bonny is like the Pope Francis of Belgium…

    Is the Catholic Church being reduced to the same type of entertainment we get through other sources? I’d love to go to St. HBO’s Cathedral and hear the sermon by Fr. Jon Oliver, but that’s not what it’s about… or is it?

    When I, as an early Baby Boomer, was in our church’s ‘folk group’ in the late 60s, I remember one Sunday reciting an after-Communion meditation from a Leonard Nimoy album with my backup band. We had so many requests we had to ditto a hundred copies for people “in our audience” to pick up the following week. It was the fad of the day, but is long since passe. It was all about mass hysteria, not Mass hysteria. And at a HS reunion a few years back, I learned that only two of us in the folk group even attend Mass any more – and the other one is a priest! This shouldn’t be what Mass is about.

    As for the movie, it looks pretty dull – a bunch of adults talking about how important the Mass is. I don’t remember needing to see When the Game Stands Tall to take a liking for HS football. My team just got out there and pummeled De La Salle.

  9. Ed Stoops

    I think the church’s message can be seen as authentic if we begin to emphasize some of our deepest values. This new holy year of mercy is a great start. The value of human life, every human life, can resonate with millennials if we concentrate on all of life not just conception to birth. Who doesn’t want to know that he or she is of infinite value, made in the image of God and given a life that will never end. This good new cannot fail to resonate.
    Now that videos are surfacing that seem to show that some lives do not matter, our Sunday assemblies must affirm that all lives matter. Young people are drawn to equality and justice for all, for gays, women, handicapped, poor, sick, outcast, abused, hungry, homeless and jailed.
    I think young people will be drawn to our church as authentic if we stress our deep values of life, love and mercy. Let us stop majoring in minors.

  10. Shaughn Casey

    As a millennial, I related closely with the feelings Scott Pluff described, and I probably still would today, had it not been for an accident, twist of fate, or whatever you like. Going into college, I had been a mega church attending, praise band hearing, liturgy loathing teenager. What seemed authentic to me then was crying at a service — twice, if the praise band were particularly on point that night. I was rebelling against Catholic School and an Episcopal background. When I was a child, I spake as a child…

    That first semester, I happened to take RST 101. Intro to Religious Studies. It was no World Religions survey, but rather, the nuts and bolts of how religion worked. Ritual time, ritual space, symbol, liturgy — the professor explained them to me in a way I had never heard before. The change was immediate, as though I had been experiencing these things on the wrong bandwidth all these years and suddenly found FM. No static at all!

    The examples are too many to list here, but take, simply, the Phos Hilaron, set to Le Cantique de Simeon.

    “O gladsome light, O grace
    Of God the Father’s face,
    The eternal splendour wearing;
    Celestial, holy, blest,
    Our Saviour Jesus Christ,
    Joyful in thine appearing.”

    Here I was, singing a hymn Christians have sung for, what? 1500 years? It was deeply authentic, but only because my sensors had finally been calibrated properly. These concepts were not hugely abstract, but I lacked utterly any way to discern them before that class. I can only imagine that so many millennials are similarly uncalibrated, and so what appears to me now as holy, wholly authentic must seem foreign or empty.

    1. Sean Keeler

      @Shaughn Casey – comment #14:
      Shaughn – Do you happen to recall the textbook(s) used for your class? Might provide a starting point to consider how to replicate your results.

      1. Shaughn Casey

        @Sean Keeler – comment #16:

        You’ve caught me at a rather awkward time, Sean, in that I’m in transit to deploy to Afghanistan for six months, and my books are several time zones away. I’ll see if I can write the professor. (It was Fall ’02, so who knows!) The textbook was fairly generic, to be honest. The big title that I recall is God in the Details, by Eric Mazur and Kate McCarthy. Will let you know if I get an answer on the main text book.

      2. Shaughn Casey

        @Sean Keeler – comment #16:

        What luck! He responded. The main textbook was James Livingston’s Anatomy of the Sacred. He also recommended his own text, which is:

        Sacred Sound: Experiencing Music in World Religions, edited by Guy L. Beck
        Wilfrid Laurier University Press, 2006 with CD
        ISBN 13:978-0-88920-421-8 10: 0-88920-421-7

      3. Sean Keeler

        @Shaughn Casey – comment #19:
        Thanks very much, Shaughn. Both duly ordered from Amazon!

  11. John Mann

    Another “What do Millennials like?” discussion? Some day, someone’s gonna have to do an actual survey.

  12. Donna Eschenauer

    In the video the narrator says a very important thing: “we need the Lord within us to effect change.” Sadly, in my experience of teaching men and women from their late twenties to their seventies, many do not realize that the divine is within them – not outside, not watching from a distance. In my view the most important starting point we can give young people is that God is active and present in their lives.

  13. Brian Culley

    Shaughn God be with you on your mission.

  14. Norman Borelli

    “My generation is critical of established institutions”

    Sorry, but that is nothing new. Both the Baby Boom generation and Generation X (my generation) have been described as being distrustful of institutions.

  15. Stanislaus Kosala

    Maybe, millenials are turned off by precisely the kind of mentality that,though well intentioned, looks at them and asks “what attracts this type of person” and then seeks to do that. In my experience people don’t like to be treated as types but as individuals. As a millennial I would prefer that a parish use Gregorian Chant/Praise/Liturgical Dance/whatever else not because they want to attract someone like me, but because they see some inherent value in those practices.
    I think that it’s a mistake to ask why millenials don’t come to Mass. The truth is that they do come to mass as Nathan’s post shows, they just come on big events like Christmas or Easter. The proper question would be: why don’t millenials come to Mass on the 15th Sunday of Ordinary Time?

    1. Jordan Zarembo

      @Stanislaus Kosala – comment #22:

      We are in the very early stages of a new liturgical experiment. The inchoate nature of the Ordinary Form offers two stark alternatives. Either throw oneself into this turbulence and weather constant change, or either look elsewhere (the EF or Byzantine liturgy, or at the other extreme infrequent communication or nonobservance). I fear, as you have noted, that trying to predict what will appeal to young people will reek of inauthenticity. And yet, offering the innovations you mention without specific appeal to any one person or group cannot escape the spectre of novelty. A constant shuffling of formats might communicate to those who do not attend Mass frequently that a church is desperate to attract newcomers and is willing to pander to them.

  16. Paul Inwood

    The cathedral in Antwerp is not the only church in Belgium where attendances are good. Some of the churches where they have English-language celebrations are also lively. I have not been for a while, but St Nicholas at the Bourse in Brussels used to be one of these.

    As far as the clip is concerned, in my opinion we really don’t need yet another video perpetuating the impression of the “magic moment” at the words of consecration. While we know that the whole Eucharistic Prayer is consecratory, it seems clear that the people who produce these videos are not well-informed.

    A presentation that appeals to young people cannot replace a solid, factual foundation. It could be that this is the sort of thing that Shaughn is referring to (#14) when he says “That first semester, I happened to take RST 101. Intro to Religious Studies. It was no World Religions survey, but rather, the nuts and bolts of how religion worked. Ritual time, ritual space, symbol, liturgy — the professor explained them to me in a way I had never heard before. The change was immediate, as though I had been experiencing these things on the wrong bandwidth all these years and suddenly found FM. No static at all!”

    By the way, Shaughn, the Phōs Hilaron dates back to the 2nd century — so even older than you thought.

  17. Aaron Sanders

    “For 2000 years, the same Mass, the same readings and prayers that the saints heard, we hear.”

    I am technically a millennial (b. ’83) though I don’t often feel like I fit that generation’s description. The above quote from the clip was how my grade school teachers presented the Mass to us, and it instilled in me a great love and awe for the liturgy. Here was something that was “authentic” – we’re not making it up as we go along, we’re doing something time-tested and saint-approved. But that presentation of the Mass backfired when I began to learn that these were not “the same readings and prayers” the saints had used; some of that was in there, true, but the Mass was more akin to a bridal ensemble (something old, something new, something borrowed . . . okay, I was spared Advent blue) than it was to the cherished relic that had been promised. While I think the EF certainly comes much closer to living up to this ideal of worshiping with the sacred patrimony of the saints, it is simply too simplistic and static an ideal to be attainable by any of our historic worship forms, all of which fall short of such monolithic continuity through space and time. So don’t tell young people that’s what they’re getting, because it may not take long before that is exposed as a lie.

    The flipside, however, is that authenticity is not conceived in the same way by all millennials, and I think most of them understand the word not to mean, as I did, the “original” version of a thing, but simply “my own creation.” This is the impulse against rote prayer and traditional forms, feeling that if I simply do what someone else told me that act/prayer/sentiment can’t truly be “mine.” The quest for this “authenticity” requires a lot of change for change’s sake, quite the opposite of an “authentic” original. While this notion of authenticity seems more popular, it also seems not to be peculiar to millennials; as was noted earlier, this is just the Boomer sentiment writ large.

    1. Jordan Zarembo

      @Aaron Sanders – comment #26:

      Aaron: But that presentation of the Mass backfired when I began to learn that these were not “the same readings and prayers” the saints had used; some of that was in there, true, but the Mass was more akin to a bridal ensemble (something old, something new, something borrowed . . . okay, I was spared Advent blue) than it was to the cherished relic that had been promised.

      The Roman rite must keep pace with newly-canonized saints. It is true that many of the commemorations are said from the Commons. Still, feasts and higher-ranked saints’ days often require new propers.

      Count me as one traditionalist who does not appreciate the absolute reluctance of some other traditionalists to update the 1962 sanctoral calendar. “Authenticity”, if it denotes stagnation, has become a major hindrance to the liturgical unity of the Roman rite. The EF is in danger of closing itself off from the life of the Church just because some prayers for new saints were penned after 1969.

  18. Aaron Sanders

    Shaughn’s comment strikes to the heart of discussions about how to cater to Group XYZ because it underscores that people will appreciate what they have been taught/formed to appreciate. It is not as if we have hardwired inclinations that must be accommodated if we are to be able to relate to liturgical reality. Instead, we judge “this is good, that is bad” with heavy weight conceded to what we have been taught about good and bad. Hence, while one of the tactics in the liturgy wars is to give the people what they want, another perfectly viable (and I think the Church would agree far more preferable) tactic is to teach the people what to want.

  19. Shaughn Casey

    Aaron,

    You’re touching on the principle thesis of C S Lewis’ The Abolition of Man, which, I think, applies just as much to liturgy, worship, and sacred music as it does to natural beauty and morality. Just a week and a half ago, my heart was heavy as I heard Stabat Mater Dolorosa.

    “Who, on Christ’s dear mother gazing,
    pierced by anguish so amazing,
    born of woman, would not weep?
    Who, on Christ’s dear Mother thinking,
    such a cup of sorrow drinking,
    would not share her sorrows deep?”

    Who, indeed!

    And the very next evening, my heart leaped for joy during the Exsultet. At 16 years old, I would not have. At 16 years old, I was very, very poorly calibrated.

  20. Norman Borelli

    I am a member of Generation X — the smaller generation sandwiched in between the huge generations of baby boomer and millennials. Obviously I can’t speak as or for any millennial, but I know about the experiences my millennial nephew and nieces have had.

    My oldest nephew was involved in the youth group in his parish and regularly took part in the youth mass that was held every Sunday evening. That is until a new priest came to the parish and abolished the youth mass so he could have a Latin mass. Attendance, which regularly filled the church, plummeted. When concern about the youth group was expressed to this priest he simply said “I don’t deal with kids, they can go to another parish.”

    And that was the when my millennial nephew having anything to do with the church, but this priest and maybe a couple of dozen people got to have their Latin mass at the expense of an entire generation in that parish.

    Yes, that is an anecdotal experience, but one that speaks quite a bit, at least about someone who has been lost to the church.

    1. Scott Pluff

      @Norman Borelli – comment #30:
      Yours may be an anecdotal story, but I assure you that variations on this story are playing out over and over. Aaron Sanders suggestion that we should “teach the people what they want” sounds like a variation of “teach the people what I, the self-appointed arbiter of taste, want.”

      One of my liturgical mentors taught me to ask the question, “What will help this particular people, in this particular time and place, to pray?” In recent years I have added, “What will attract and engage people who have been away from the church, and what will challenge current members to greater discipleship?” This approach requires a certain humility on the part of the minister, accepting that he or she must surrender personal preferences to discern what is going to advance the great commission in a particular time and place. The great commission was not to, “Go forth and make traditionalists of all nations, baptizing in the name of Latin, rubrics, and chanted propers.”

      1. Aaron Sanders

        @Scott Pluff – comment #34:

        “Teach the people what to want” isn’t some traditionalist preserve; it’s the (much simplified) history of the Liturgical Movement. When the people wanted all low Mass, all the time, reformers took up the work of bringing them around to celebrating with solemnity and song. When the people wanted to pray their rosary during Mass they were taught that it would be better to follow the prayers of the Mass itself more closely. When the people were content to do only their Easter duty, Pius X steered them toward greater frequency of Communion. When the wave of revision/innovation began to swell toward the middle of the 20th century, it was not in response to grassroots demands for change X, Y, or Z but because the ‘experts’ of various stripes (pastors, academics) told the people “this is a better way to do things.”

        This approach certainly contains the danger that individuals will impose their own tastes and theories, but if done well (as I think much of the Liturgical Movement did) it enables us to say “Here is what the Church holds out as our ideal, and here’s why,” with the ‘why’ almost always having at least an implicit “because the Church through time has come to believe this will form you (and/or those with whom you interact at the liturgy) into a better Christian.”

        “Teaching people what to want” is a very similar notion to “challenging them to be greater disciples.” If a man walks into your parish and says “I want a liturgy that gets me in and out as fast as can be, requires no personal investment of me, and doesn’t impact the rest of my life,” I think most everyone on these boards would agree that we need to challenge those desires, rather than accommodate them, if we are to truly serve him. I simply contend that this principle applies also to questions of “how do we engage [demographic P]?” Not every desire will be disordered, but no one should be abandoned to his desires if the Church can teach him to desire higher goods.

      2. Jordan Zarembo

        @Aaron Sanders – comment #37:

        Aaron: When the wave of revision/innovation began to swell toward the middle of the 20th century, it was not in response to grassroots demands for change X, Y, or Z but because the ‘experts’ of various stripes (pastors, academics) told the people “this is a better way to do things.”

        It’s important to remember that the liturgical movement has matured alongside the historical-critical approach to scripture scholarship. The latter method of scripture criticism challenged traditional assumptions about biblical authorship by questioning the origin of books and epistles. For example, a historical-critical perspective might argue that there is no St. John the Evangelist, but “John”, whether a single writer or a consortium of different authors and times. Similarly, ressourcement centered on the patristic/very late antique period allowed successive waves of liturgical reform to create a new liturgical ethic disconnected from a literal interpretation of the modern eras.

        Certainly, the Roman late antique was not a time of gender or class equality or social justice, which puzzles me greatly. Why try to develop equality in liturgy from a period devoid of equality? As Fr. Ruff has noted, the patristic period is the only one in which there is more convincing evidence of a congregational participation, as opposed to the Caroliginian for example.. This evidence does not change the social dynamics of the late antique period, however, but might actually complicate the goals of liturgical reform.

        Rosaries are a distraction from this argument, but are very rewarding for meditation at Mass — try it sometime! The real question is the malleability of the historical-critical approach. I would say that it has been stretched beyond elasticity when applied to Catholic liturgy.

  21. @Aaron Sanders (#26): as someone else born in 1983, I agree with you wholeheartedly! (Not just because we share a birth year, just to make clear…!) 😉

    @Jordan Zarembo (#29): I didn’t read Aaron as against the introduction of new propers for new saints. Rather, I read him – at least in part – as commenting on the way in which a huge number of the prayers in the post-conciliar Missal in, for example, the Proper of Time, have been dug out from the older sacramentaries and Missals and edited for the benefit of “modern man”. Or, perhaps, the way in which older prayers have been combined/centonised in order to create hybrid prayers that bear little theological resemblance to the originals (e.g. 4th Sun Lent, Collect: a centonisation of Ge 178 and St Leo’s Sermon on Lent 2, both of which speak of fasting and its blessings, whereas the centonised Collect speaks of neither).

    If there’s anything that going through the postcommunion prayers of the post-conciliar Missal has personally highlighted to me, it’s that some of the editing work of the Consilium is… well, questionable, at the very least – “inauthentic”, perhaps…? (!)

    1. Paul Inwood

      @Matthew Hazell – comment #31:

      If there’s anything that going through the postcommunion prayers of the post-conciliar Missal has personally highlighted to me, it’s that some of the editing work of the Consilium is… well, questionable, at the very least – “inauthentic”, perhaps…? (!)

      Could that be because you do not yourself have the same qualifications, the same experience, the same decades of scholarship and concentrated study and expertise behind you as those experts who worked on these texts? It seems possible.

    2. Aaron Sanders

      @Matthew Hazell – comment #31:

      Good reading, Matthew, for that was indeed one of the targets I had in mind. As for Jordan’s point about new propers, I’m not one to insist upon stasis for the sake of “authenticity”, especially because rigorous adherence to that principle demands antiquarianism, so organic development, especially if it is merely to keep up with the Martyrology, doesn’t bother me.

      The OF’s problems with “authenticity as continuity with the original” extend beyond the collects, though, if what we are promising is the same readings and prayers – by which I hear, the very same rite – that formed the saints through the ages (again, with my full agreement that the ‘Roman Rite’ known by Leo was not ‘the same’ as that celebrated by Bede or Isaac Jogues). Some things remain old (a sizeable portion of the Ordo Missae remains intact), but some are old and new at the same time because they resurrect centuries-dead practices (‘offertory’ procession, sign of peace, sharing of the cup), others are new and borrowed (multiple anaphoras, berakah preparation of the gifts, three-year lectionary), and some are just plain new (EMHCs). The very plethora of options now available is a mark of discontinuity with the rite that nourished a millennium of saints, and it often ensures that even where strong continuity is allowed (Confiteor, Roman Canon, etc.) it is rarely experienced.

      All of those elements can be debated on their own merits, a debate I don’t intend to incite here, but they are thrown in now as part of my own millennial reflection upon the search for authenticity in liturgy. Whatever form of authenticity I would grant them singly (as having nourished saints in their own times and places), they don’t have the sort that I was inspired to long for through the (entirely unrealistic) promise that I was getting the very same thing we had celebrated throughout the ages.

      1. Paul Inwood

        @Aaron Sanders – comment #35:

        The very plethora of options now available is a mark of discontinuity with the rite that nourished a millennium of saints, and it often ensures that even where strong continuity is allowed (Confiteor, Roman Canon, etc.) it is rarely experienced.

        We keep hearing this argument over and over again; and it still doesn’t stand up. The fact is that a millennium of saints weren’t nourished by exactly what we have today. Even the most cursory look at liturgical history shows a whole plethora (to use that word again) of uses, rites and sub-rites, diocesan, regional and national variations, religious-order forms, etc, etc, all derived in some way from the main lines of Gathering – Word – Eucharist – Mission but all different in their way of implementing it and, it is to be noted, often co-existing. This remained true, if more restricted, even after the reforms of Pius V, and it remains true today, of course.

        Getting the very same thing we had celebrated throughout the ages was always a fiction. The unfortunate thing is that people with impressionable minds were told this and are now unable to let go of it. It has nothing whatsoever to with authenticity or lack of it, but rather more to do with nostalgia, or infantilism, or — let’s be frank — ignorance.

  22. @Paul Inwood (#32): I never had you down as an argumentum ad verecundiam sort of chap! 😉

    Obviously, I’m not going to claim the same level of expertise and scholarship as many members of the Consilium undoubtedly had. But their work and their reasoning behind that work is not beyond question, and I don’t think one requires multiple post-graduate degrees in order to be able to take part in that debate.

    In fact, that’s one of the reasons I started the study in the first place – to provide easy access to some of the sources behind the post-conciliar Missal, in order that people who are intelligent, but might not know where to look for the source texts, can take part in a critical examination of the reformed rites.

    Besides, I don’t think I’m saying anything particularly controversial – various people better qualified than I have asked similar questions about the liturgical reforms over the last few years (Reid, Pristas, etc.). And, for what it’s worth, I have an M.A. in Biblical Studies, so I am familiar with things like textual criticism, and would consider myself to have quite a lot of transferable skills when it comes to textual and theological study of liturgical texts.

    But as I said, having degrees or decades of experience is not required to wonder why, for instance, yesterday’s postcommunion lacks any idea of healing/absolution from our faults/offenses, yet in the two texts centonised to create that postcommunion – MR 1103 (Easter Fri postcom. in 1962 Missal) and St. Leo’s Sermo 71.6 – this notion is central in each of them!

  23. Sean Keeler

    Norman Borelli : … [T]his priest he simply said “I don’t deal with kids, they can go to another parish.”

    Name the priest. Name the parish. Name the bishop who permitted this comment and behavior to stand. Without this information all people can do is weep, wail and gnash teeth. NUTS!

    Unfortunately, these anecdotal stories, as addressed by Scott Pluff, are not uncommon. Yet I have never heard a single tale that named names. After a while, it becomes just another unfounded excuse to denigrate the Catholic Church.


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