The National Federation of Priests’ Councils

PrayTell speaks with Fr. Richard Vega, president of the U.S. Catholic National Federation of Priests’ Councils, during the recent lay ecclesial ministry symposium in Collegeville. The NFPC facilitates communication among priests’ councils, provides a discussion forum for priests, and enables priests’ councils to speak with a common voice. The NFPC collaborates with the USCCB and with lay and religious groups. Fr. Vega is a priest of the archdiocese of Los Angeles.

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PrayTell: What is your role as NFPC president?
Fr. Richard Vega: I do a lot of connecting the dots for priests. Are there best practices we can share with one another so we don’t all recreate the wheel? I represent priests’ concerns to the bishops on the USCCB committee on Clergy, Consecrated Life, and Vocations. I also represent the priests’ concerns to other national organizations, such as I did at the LEM meeting in Collegeville. More recently, with international priests increasing as our ranks diminish and grey, we’re looking at the issues involved in this.

PT: What is your sense of the generational differences among U.S. priests?
RV: It’s being talked about in terms of generation, but also in terms of ecclesiology. There are priests with an ecclesiology which is pre-Vatican II, Vatican II, and post-Vatican II. We all need to be in conversation with each other. We priests share a commonality about many things. But things like wearing cassock, preferring Latin Mass, the desire not to wear clerics, or to have more a servant model rather than a cultic model – this makes the conversation jarring and hard.

PT: Pope Benedict is giving much attention to liturgy. He is implementing some of his own preferences for traditional practices. Do you think his vision is what the Church needs now? Do you see any possible dangers in it?
RV: It shows a dichotomy. We want to retain elements form the past that speak of transcendence, but at the same time, that’s not where people are at. They want God to be more tangible, more palpable. I think a good example of this the Pew study of Hispanics and the numbers of Hispanics leaving the Catholic faith for other denominations. They find our liturgy not animated, not lively, not really putting them in touch with God. And not in their native language! And yet when you talk about Latin or sacred music – they know that’s part of the tradition, but it no longer speaks to them as it did in the past. We have to find a way to bridge that gap so that people can communicate with the transcendent and the incarnate, palpable aspect of God in their lives today.

PT: What is your sense of priests’ attitudes toward the coming English missal?
RV: They are everywhere across the map. We have people who believe NFPC should be very strong in support of the missal and throw our weight completely behind it. Others think we should offer a defiant “we’re not going to use it,” or push for an experimental stage. Part of the difficulty is the whole question of language. We’re translating from Latin to English and yet we don’t have the same subjunctive system, we don’t have an ablative absolute. And so, the translation is sometimes jarring. And difficult to proclaim. It is going to be a challenge. Also, when we invite our international priest to celebrate Mass, they’re going to struggle with the phrasing, proclaimability, and structure of the English language because it’s not the English they’ve studied. It’s going to present a lot of challenges to us.

PT: Do you wish priests had been more involved in the decision making process around the new missal?
RV: Priests were not consulted. There are some bishops who believe it was already a done deal. Many priests believe it was a done deal. But since priests are their closest collaborators, you’d think the bishops would want more input from us about the liturgy which we share with them. The process highlights the breakdown between the Ordinary and his collaborators.

PT: Do you have any predictions about how US priests will receive the new missal?
RV: A small number have already decided not to use it. But most will give it a try. I think if the first attempt with the missal doesn’t go well, priests will stick with the current sacramentary. Depending on their initial experience, they will make a decision. Even though we’re making an effort to do the catechesis for priests, if they don’t feel comfortable with it they’re not going to keep using it. But other priests will use the new missal, no matter what.
Cost will be as issue for some parishes – we hear it’s going to be a 300-dollar book. Especially when we’re closing, twinning, and combining parishes, priests will ask, Is this something I can afford, or do I wait until my current book wears out?

PT: Where do you see liturgical renewal in the US going in the future?
RV: The Hispanic presence is going to make a big difference and shift the liturgy in our country. Popular religiosity is going to impact the liturgy. I’m not sure how, but it will. I look at the various feasts of Our Lady. There is a very different cultural sense that undergirds all those celebrations. As the numbers of Hispanics grow, it’s going to impact our American way of liturgy in ways that we don’t suspect yet. If we keep losing people to the Prot denominations, we’re going to be confronted with some major challenges. We will try to retain not only immigrants, but also 1st and 2nd generation Hispanic populations in the Catholic Church.

Other Voices

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Comments

114 responses to “The National Federation of Priests’ Councils”

  1. David Haas

    I found the comments of Fr. Vega to be very representative of what I hear in other circles of musicians and other pastoral leaders. I appreciated his frankness in talking about the many issues involved with the acceptance and implementation of the missal, particularly the reality that there will be priests and others who will just refuse to use the new missal. I do not personally support such defiance, but can certainly understand why they have the desire to resist its use, and feel that whether we like it or not, we are not facing this honestly, For some, it will not just be angst about using the new missal – we will have many pastors and others who will just refuse to use it. What will the bishop’s do in such cases – remove the priestly faculties of those who protest in such a way?

    I wish that bishops and diocesan liturgy offices would use this time of “not knowing when the recognitio will really be a recognitio” – to host some gatherings of the priests, to have an honest and frank conversation among themselves to honestly hear where the priests are at, talk through these things, and find some empathy for what many are feeling – around their concerns about the “proclaimability” (is this a word) of the texts, around the economics, and of course, the most important issue – how they as priests are concerned about the catechesis and most certain resistance that they will face from the people in the parishes that are their pastoral concern.

  2. David Haas

    Part of the dynamic going on here as I see it, is the reality that many pastors and parishes are acting and serving in a more “parochial” or almost “congregationalist” manner… again, we can spend time being critical of this pastoral stance – but it is a strong reality in many communities these days. Again, just to be honest, many pastors are moving away from the diocesan centrality of things, and focusing on their ministry and work in their particular parish…. this lens of doing ministry is fed somewhat, I believe, by their low morale and feeling “beat up” in light of the bad press and image of priests as a result of the priest/sex abuse/scandals. I see this in my travels in parish after parish.. they feel demoralized. Thus the new translation of the missal, for some, feels like another thing that is jammed down their throat, and they will be on the front lines catching the angst and anger about it from many of their parishoners. I worry for them.. I think the anticipation of the new missal is one more source of extreme stress for them. So the result for many, is to detach more and more and stay in their corners of the parish…

    1. David, my sense is that your observations are accurate. I’ll note that here in the midwest, Paul Turner and a few others are making the rounds to prepare clergy/promote for the new translation. But I wonder if this is slightly misguided. It presumes that–yet again–good catechesis is the solution. Just give people good, scholarly, and upbeat catechesis, and they will come around.

      It seems that bishops should have invested themselves more in their relationships with their priests. Bishops, after all, will be among the least-bothered by all this. They are largely insulated from the laity. They have masters of ceremony who escort them, point to the text, and go from there.

      Parish priests have other concerns–as well as a lot of them doing liturgy for themselves.

      At a time when we should be focusing on evangelization, better preaching, and addressing the economic impact on parishes and ministries, it almost seems like a distraction that has a potential to shove some priests and parishes into a liturgical schism. And this, at a time when we need a bolstered unity between bishops and clergy, and between parish and diocese.

    2. Greg Smith

      Hi David – I was at the GIA breakout session at NPM in Detroit and I must say you were brilliant. In less than 30 minutes you demonstrated a tremendous sense of pastoral sensitivity to this whole Roman Missal issue. My favorite quote was “Everyone just relax!” You had everyone in the palm of your hand. Perhaps you could provide some coaching and counseling to the American Bishops on how to deal with change. They really need it.

  3. Paul Joseph

    Pray Tells asks Father Vega, “Pope Benedict is giving much attention to liturgy. He is implementing some of his own preferences for traditional practices. Do you think his vision is what the Church needs now? Do you see any possible dangers in it?”

    First of all, the way the question is phrased already suggests that this blog and Father Vega are not pleased with the reforms and restorations Pope Benedict is suggesting take place in the liturgy. I find it inappropriate for any priest or any Catholic publication to publicly disagree with the Holy Father simply because he is the Holy Father and we aren’t. We should be both deferential and respectful of his wishes over that over any culture or our own personal preferences, because “where there is Peter, there is the Church” and everything else is secondary.

    1. I find it inappropriate for any priest or any Catholic publication to publicly disagree with the Holy Father simply because he is the Holy Father and we aren’t.

      I presume you don’t have any problem with that priest Paul or that Catholic publication “The Letter to the Galatians.”

    2. Anthony Ruff, OSB Avatar
      Anthony Ruff, OSB

      Paul Joseph, you must have the spiritual charism of mindreading! Pray Tell asks whether the Pope’s liturgical vision is a) what the Church needs now; OR b) possibly has some dangers in it. I think this sounds like a fair question which presumes little – so why do you assume that it’s a setup for B and not A? Your attitude and your judgmentalism are not helpful to an open conversation.

      I think you’re missing what’s primary and what’s secondary. We’re not talking about doctrine here. We’re not even talking about church discipline. We’re talking about the Pope using some options where most of the Church uses other options. If you think there’s nothing to discuss because it’s the Pope, then you need to study some basic ecclesiology. You also need to learn what theology is – and what blogs are for.

      I’m happily in communion with the Pope. But this is emphatically secondary, and many other things are primary – like the Resurrection, the love of God, our call to love each other, the Kingdom of God, and on and on. The Petrine office is at the service of all these.

      awr

      1. Paul Joseph

        I appreciate and understand what you are saying. but we
        obviously do not agree.
        Nonetheless, I’ll stick with the Holy Father as I believe he
        best knows how to lead the Church.

      2. Paul,

        Why would you think that those who distinguish between infallible and non-infallible pronouncements are in any theologically significant sense not “sticking with the Holy Father”?

      3. Paul Joseph

        FC,

        I don’t. I simply believe that everyone needs to get on board
        to support the Holy Father. If one disagrees with a particular
        issue, he or she is free to do so, obviously, but I think it more
        respectful and more conducive for unity to the Holy Father
        to keep silent publicly and work for change through the
        proper channels of the Church rather than publicly disagree
        with him. Public disagreement only gives enemies of the
        Church such as The New York Times and others opportunities
        to continue to bash us.

      4. Ioannes Andreades

        A fair question would have been to ask what the dangers AND benefits could be and not just the dangers.

      5. +JMJ+

        To be honest (although I certainly have my bias), when I read the two questions — “Do you think his vision is what the Church needs now? Do you see any possible dangers in it?” — I heard a tone of “Do you think his vision is really what the Church needs now?”

    3. Greg Smith

      OK – I know this is an open forum and we’re supposed to respect each other, but, I just laughed out loud after reading the above. This is the same type of attitude that caused the sexual abuse crisis (and many other problems) over the past years. It is TOTALLY 100 percent appropriate for anyone to publicly disagree with the Holy Father and anything that comes from Rome. These guys are totally out of touch with the people they “shepherd.” When Rome shows some true pastoral leadership and accountability, I’ll start listening.

  4. Ryan Ellis

    1. If “international priests” have problems with English, there’s a simple solution. It’s called “Latin.”

    2. $300 is not a large expense for any parish. If there truly is a hardship, send me the bill. I’m a simple layman in the upper middle class, but this is a rounding error for something so important.

    Give me a break. Snip, snipe, snip. More of the same.

    1. Anthony Ruff, OSB Avatar
      Anthony Ruff, OSB

      Ryan, you’re skating on thin ice. The GIRM commends Latin at international gatherings. But if the whole congregation is, say, English-speaking Euro-American and the priest is from another country and has difficulty with English, we’re not talking about an international gathering. In “Sing to the Lord” the US bishops write, “In promoting the use of Latin in the Liturgy, pastors should always ’employ that form of participation which best matches the capabilities of each congregation’,” citing the 1967 Roman document “Musicam Sacram.”

      Few things in life are simple. Your ‘simple solution’ is lacking in pastoral sensitivity or awareness of all the church’s documents. Go learn all the rubrics and all the documents before issuing statements so apodictically.

      awr

  5. Bill deHaas

    Appreciate the frankness of Fr. Vega and largely agree with Mr. Haas’s comments. But, let me add:
    – ecclesiology – in order to accept this new Roman Missal the Vatican II concepts have to be significantly changed. I again raise the issue of “complicity”??
    – using Turner as an example, how honest are we going to be about this process? Starting with Mayer, Estevez, Rajinth, etc. you had a very small group of non-English speakers implement dramatic changes using an ideological approach – why? Would suggest that eventually the church will be faced with questions about justice, trust, etc. in terms of this process. That is where I disagree with Turner, Hughes, etc…..that we just accept what we can’t change and somehow use this as a “teachable” moment?? Would suggest that the educated and other catholics are tired of the “ram it down my throat” approach.
    – finally, someone has raised a crucial issue…..roughly 30% of parishes have foreign or 1st generation priests who can’t proclain well now…..constant complaints about inability to understand, hear just basic english words. What this reform of the reform is missing is that a majority of priests don’t know liturgy, don’t proclaim well, don’t preach well. Changing the translation will not magically correct this issue – in fact, it will increase the negativity of this issue.
    – what we really need is not a new missal but priests who understand liturgy; are taught to proclaim, not just read in a monotone;…

  6. Bill deHaas

    Allow me to give some documentation:
    – quote from Ranjinth: ” Some practices which SC had never contemplated were allowed into the liturgy e.g. Mass towards the people, communion in the hand, giving up all latin, chant, concelebration, etc.. There was also the gross mininterpretation of the principle of “active participation.”
    – there is no evidence for these claims yet this small group was dominated by this. This is an ideology.
    – one driving force behind this project is the assumption that enculturation/vernacular liturgies were to blame for the exit from church, etc. This is an assumption with no proof. It is surprising that the current Pope (who should know research; documentation, etc.) has operated on an emotional and subjective level when making liturgical decisions. The whole arguement that SC led to a demeaning of the vertical, loss of sacredness, etc. is an assumption. It totally ignores/avoids 100 years of sacrament theology that the community is the sacrament that gathers to celebrate the eucharist. Even if some of this is correct, the reaction is overwhelming and too far the other way. As I have said before, the cure (new missal) is worse than the disease. And it ignores the fact that there was already a well established process to address these concerns.
    – will end with two other words that seem to be misused in this discussion: secularism and modernism. We appear 100 years later to be repeating the anti-modernism pattern and secularism is evil?

    1. +JMJ+

      “It totally ignores/avoids 100 years of sacrament theology that the community is the sacrament that gathers to celebrate the eucharist.”

      I think there is far too much emphasis on the Eucharist as the action of the “community” and not enough on the Eucharist as the action of Christ. I also think there’s far too much emphasis on the local community and not enough on the Church as a whole.

  7. John Finn

    David, it is no more appropriate to resist the new translation today than it was to resist the earlier post Vatican II liturgical renewal. It also is extremely unjust for a celebrant to publicly celebrate with a dated or no longer authorized translation, it would be illicit and implies that the sacred liturgy belongs to the celebrant alone. Maybe the bishop would allow them to use the old sacramentary in Masses “sine cum populo”.

    “Sing to the Lord” says much about Latin in the liturgy Fr. Anthony: “(citing Vatican II)…care should be taken to foster the role of Latin in the Liturgy, particularly in liturgical
    song. Pastors should ensure “that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin
    those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them'”. Given what STL & V2 actually say, I think Ryan’s ice is quite firm. Also, given the large number of Spanish speaking immigrants in the USA, a large percentage of parish Masses can be described as “international” indicating that more frequent use of Latin would be highly appropriate per the GIRM’s directive. Bilingual Glorias are a strained way to avoid the GIRM that are too typical.

    1. Anthony Ruff, OSB Avatar
      Anthony Ruff, OSB

      I disagree. Ryan said it’s “simple” – international priests can just use Latin. No mention of whether the congregation is partly Hispanic (not all are), or entirely English-speaking (many are), or some other mix. No mention of which parts might be in Latin – does he mean the entire liturgy? It’s not difficult to imagine a pastoral disaster with much uproar from shocked parishioners if the whole liturgy is suddenly in Latin – but based on his words Ryan seems not to mind – it’s “simple.” Oh – and do we know that all international priests are flunt in Latin and able to preside well in Latin? (Not all US priests are by a long shot.) I’m not talking about what ‘should be’ or what ‘might be’ in 20 years – I’m talking about what to do the day the new missal goes into effect.

      I’m no opponent of Latin for heaven’s sake! I teach Gregorian chant, I conduct a Latin schola, I have a Latin chant collection forthcoming from GIA, I have increased the use of Latin in my monastery. I am an opponent of reckless campaigns based on a partial reading of the documents with no concern for real people. There is no quotation you can find from V2 or the US bishops which would convince me otherwise. I stand by my judgment – thin ice.

      awr

  8. David Haas

    It seems to be that Fr. Vega’s concerns were PASTORAL on so many levels… the concerns about priests morale and the process which did not include them, but for a large part lies at their feet; the concerns about what direction different pastors will take in response to the missal; economic concerns with all of this; and of course, how will the people react and respond. These PASTORAL concerns and the lack of strategies (beyond certain books by great folks like Turner and others) and the lack of CONVERSATIONS beyond presentations presented TO the priests (the FDLC/USCBB workshops), rather than WITH them… and also how these issues point toward a more de-centralization of “church” in the attitudes of pastors, these are the important things that Fr. Vega is raising… I would like to hear more discussion on this aspect personally. I am absolutely stunned and amazed that local bishops are not wanting to have such conversations and engage in a back and forth.. unless they afraid to do so…. I don’t know. All of this theological back and forth is of course, VERY important (and I learn so much from you all), BUT it means absolutely NOTHING for the most part for the average parishoner… that is not a put-down of our people, but it is what I believe to be an honest appraisal of the issues that concern our communities: their prayer-life is being disrupted in a major way.. and our priests, understandably so, I believe.. are nervous, stressed about how to minister in this climate.

  9. Bill deHaas

    Good insights – a classmate and pastor who is nearing 60 years old said just this week that he has attended one preparation meeting run by GIA on the new missal. He did not want to talk much about it by stating that he avoids church politics….but, on the other hand, he is very concerned about his parish, the reaction, etc. and is not sure that he has the energy to make this happen. He talked rather of just beginning to move into early retirement. This is a dedicated priest and pastor who loves liturgy and finds little support.

  10. Ray Marshall

    “We’re translating from Latin to English and yet we don’t have the same subjunctive system, we don’t have an ablative absolute. And so, the translation is sometimes jarring. And difficult to proclaim. It is going to be a challenge.”

    I have an idea. Why don’t we put the new translation in a book, let’s call it a “Sacramentary” and the priests who can read will be able to read it in English.

    ” A small number have already decided not to use it. But most will give it a try. I think if the first attempt with the missal doesn’t go well, priests will stick with the current sacramentary. Depending on their initial experience, they will make a decision. Even though we’re making an effort to do the catechesis for priests, if they don’t feel comfortable with it they’re not going to keep using it.”

    I have another idea. Why don’t we have priests promise to obey their bishop or abbot? Or would that be too radical? Where in canon law does it proclaim priests to be “free agents?”

    “Cost will be as issue for some parishes – we hear it’s going to be a 300-dollar book.”

    Horrors!!! How much does a half dozen versions of missalettes for 500 parishioners cost each year?

    1. Edna Savage

      I have an idea, too. Why don’t we just put a rather bad English Google-translation into a book, ask people to pay out large sums of dollars to buy it, and tell them that they have to use it to worship whether they like it or not and whether or not it leads them into prayer, in virtue of holy obedience.

      Something tells me that in this day and age this wouldn’t fly.

  11. The GIRM commends Latin at international gatherings.

    Can you point to the paragraphs? The way you state that comes across as quite limiting, something I don’t find in the documents.

    But if the whole congregation is, say, English-speaking Euro-American and the priest is from another country and has difficulty with English, we’re not talking about an international gathering.

    But it doesn’t really matter does it? Because there’s nothing limiting the use of Latin to international gatherings. I’ve come across several priests here in New York City who are more intelligible in Latin than in English.

    In “Sing to the Lord” the US bishops write, “…pastors should always ‘employ that form of participation which best matches the capabilities of each congregation’,” citing the 1967 Roman document “Musicam Sacram.”

    SttL via Musicam Sacram mandates people in all regular parishes be taught the ordinary in Latin. Furthermore, SttL states: “At international and multicultural gatherings of different language groups, it is most appropriate to celebrate the Liturgy in Latin, ‘with the exception of the readings, the homily and the prayer of the faithful.'” Citing Pope Benedict’s Sacramentum Caritatis. There is almost no celebration of the Eucharist in my city that is not multicultural in the relevant sense.

    1. GIRM, caput II, numer 41

      . . .
      “Cum frequentius in dies
      fideles ex diversis nationibus inter se conveniant,
      expedit ut iidem fideles aliquas saltem partes Ordinarii Missæ, præsertim vero symbolum fidei et Orationem dominicam,
      modulis adhibitis facilioribus,
      lingua latina simul cantare sciant.”

      1. My understanding of this paragraph is that it says that because of the frequency of international gatherings, the faithful should be able to do their parts in Latin. This doesn’t mean that Latin must always (or only) be used at international gatherings, but it does mean that Latin must be used in the parishes, because otherwise there’s no way that they’ll know it when they go to the international gatherings.

        That is to say, I see that paragraph, but it doesn’t back up Fr. Ruff’s argument: “The GIRM commends Latin at international gatherings. But if the whole congregation is, say, English-speaking Euro-American and the priest is from another country and has difficulty with English, we’re not talking about an international gathering”

        It doesn’t follow from the section I read in the GIRM about Latin and international gatherings that when we’re not talking about international gatherings that says much at all about whether Latin should be used.

      2. Ioannes Andreades

        Strictly speaking, this directive applies not only to international meetings, e.g. World Youth Day, it talks about services in general (frequentius in dies–with greater frequency day after day) with people from different races and nations. It could be referring to a Sunday mass in an urban parish where members of the congregation speak Spanish, Haitian Creole, Vietnamese, English, and Igbo.

        N.B. “saltem”.

  12. David Kozak

    A quick question. When the new Missal comes into use; those of us who have predominately Hispanic congregations are in a quandary. Which Spanish language Missal will be normative? Are the rubrics different ?
    A different GIRM without the U.S. Adaptions? Someone please enlighten me!

  13. Mark Duch

    Mr. Haas – I don’t think that there are going to be massive amounts of protests (although there will certainly be a few). If there any, it will be certainly be from older folks who already protest everything anyway. My generation (I am 28) doesn’t “fight the power,” or attempt to “stick it to The Man.” If we don’t like something, we either bear it and wait, or we simply just leave. We have football and Xbox and Starbucks to help build community. Those of us who actually do attend church, do it for a reason. And it isn’t to transform the Church into more of a Eucharistic community or live into the tension or defeat clericalism or some other perceived problem with the Church/psycho-babble. We remain Catholic because we believe in sin, transformation and authority, and honestly we’re just waiting for all the guitar-strummers and burnouts with authority issues to move on. I don’t know a single person under the age of 40 planning a “protest.” Those who are aware of the new translation seem sort of glad that it will expose the limited ability of your pop-liturgies to deal with change. All the younger folks at my healthy, vibrant, suburban parish look around and stare when the guitar strumming starts, wondering when it will end. Sorry, Mr. Haas, I don’t mean to insult your generation or your work, but what some have called “fake celtic elevator music” isn’t relevant to us, and we wish you’d try composing something new and timeless or politely let the…

    1. I am constantly amazed how many of those who style themselves “traditional” end up sounding a lot like hippies form the 60s when they speak of their elders who are actually living.

      Isn’t it just possible that those over 40 might have some wisdom to pass on?

      Kids these days.

      1. Mark Duch

        That’s the issue, Deacon. It seems to us that most of them have rejected the wisdom of the Church that was passed on to them, and created their own pseudo-Catholic identity. Only it’s a snapshot of the ’60s and ’70s and we’re not interested. See, thanks to the Internet, it’s now possible to make such expositions. I wasn’t born when the altar at my church was ripped off the wall by those wisdom-filled over 40s folks. The problem isn’t that the over-40s have no wisdom. It’s that they decided that everyone before them didn’t. If they’d chosen to hand on the Church’s wisdom instead of their own, maybe this wouldn’t be happening?

      2. This is a pretty blanket judgment. In my conversations with those who lived though the Council (I did so only in the most technical sense, being four when the Council ended — and not becoming Catholic for another sixteen years) I find that they often have wisdom to offer, even if I disagree with them at times about what the needs of the Church today are. I’m not quite sure what you mean by “thanks to the Internet, it’s now possible to make such expositions,” but surely the fun-house-mirror world of the internet is no substitute for actually talking with people. If you do, I think you might find that you might learn something.

      3. Mark Duch

        As to it being blanket, I did say “seems” and “most” as qualifying words. As to the statement about it being possible to make expositions due to the Internet, I simply meant that it is possible to recover traditions that were thrown into the trash instead of being passed down to us. This is because the documents of Vatican II, for example, are available in full text, as are pictures and videos of what Mass was like, etc. The professional liturgists and renegade priests can be called out when they say things that simply aren’t true. As for talking to people, are you implying that there is some value in listening to folks who work against the Church and think they know better than the Church? I guess it depends on what you’re aiming to do with the “wisdom” you receive…

      4. I think there is value in listening to people who actually lived through the events in question, may see things differently than I do, and not prejudging them to be “working against the Church.”

    2. John Quinn

      “Those of us who actually do attend church, do it for a reason. And it isn’t to transform the Church into more of a Eucharistic community … ”

      – Why not?

      Mark, you remind me of Roger Daltrey of the Who in the 60’s when he sang: ‘Why don’t you all f-f-f-f-fade away – you don’t dig what we all say’.

      (Roger is now in his 60’s and is still singing this!)

      1. Mark Duch

        Because we are not called to change the nature of the Church. We are called to let the Church’s nature change us.

  14. John Finn

    Mark,

    I agree. Yesterday we were treated to a number from the hey day of the folk “60’s. Even the clergy seemed bemused by the selection. So many musical forms popular with publishers & their employees seem more suited to the stage than divine worship. I think we can find the answer in Vatican II and Musicam Sacram-chant and polyphony. I’d rather assist at a recited Mass than listen (and it is really closer to endure) the selections made by the parish musicians but recited Masses are no longer offered in my rural parish.

  15. Mark Duch

    John- in a perfect world where people got off their rear-ends and cared about forming scholas and choirs, I’d agree that we could find the answer in the official music of the Roman rite. Unfortunately, the musically-inclined among us don’t seem to be aware that that is an option, because the current band of liturgical musicians are cramming the 1970’s Chicago rock songs down our throats and nobody ever asks us our opinion about it. We don’t have any young folks in our parish participating in the music, I think because they probably feel they’d have to join the Partridge Family Band up there in the choir loft and contribute to the problem.

    The way things are currently, I see much more participation in singing old protestant hymns like How Great Thou Art and Amazing Grace than in singing the parts of the Mass. And most people my age understand that if you want pop-relevance in music, the protestants are still doing it better. They have full on modern-rock concerts at their churches, and if you’ve ever heard stuff by Hillsong United then you know they’re pulling it off well.

    But the Catholic Church is called to something different than pop-culture musical relevance…

  16. John Finn

    Yes Mark – there seems to be a consensus among a certain age group that controls much that takes place musically in the parishes that I’ve participated to avoid singing the ordinaries and to always prefer contemporary (Broadway style) hymns over the ordinaries in direct contradiction to MS. Once I was told that “we never sing the Our Father here” I cannot help but wonder why any pastor would permit this.

    On another but related topic: has anyone ever heard the credo sung in English? The Byzantine Church (in the US) has a wonderful English version but I’ve yet to hear it sung in English in a Latin rite parish. The Byzantine version does make use of some terms we see in our new translation e.g. “visible” and “invisible” – maybe that will help with some diffusion in this area.

    1. Greg Smith

      It would be fabulous to sing a Credo or Lord’s Prayer (Instead of just mumbling the words) However, many Priests will not allow it because it makes the mass too long. That has been my situation for many years. Very sad.

      1. +JMJ+

        I was at a Sunday Mass at my childhood parish a few years ago, and they had a sung Our Father completely unlike the sung Our Father I remembered from the past. This was a sing-songy call-and-response Our Father with a “reprise” after the doxology. I really don’t think anyone in the congregation needed a call-and-response form of the prayer, and I certainly don’t see it as having been an improvement on the “traditional” sung form of the prayer.

    2. De gustibus non disputandum, but I wonder what you folks would think about this simple music from a small parish in Georgia:

      http://www.magsimba.com/sounds/Lamb-of-God-etc.mp3

      http://www.magsimba.com/sounds/Lord-have-mercy-etc.mp3

      http://www.magsimba.com/sounds/Alleluia-etc.mp3

      1. WIll Roach

        Vic, You frequently use latin without explanation or translation, is this in protest of the magisterium’s acceptance of the vernacular?
        As for the music- Sorry- the words are intelligible; they are drowned out by the melody and the high, whispy inhuman voice tone. Angels don’t need mercy. The ‘Agnus Dei’ is a prayer said by humans- and it’s a prayer to be spoken- not listened to. It is the prayer of each and every human individual asking for mercy before God in the eucharist. It is not a reverential reflection.

      2. +JMJ+

        You frequently use latin without explanation or translation, is this in protest of the magisterium’s acceptance of the vernacular

        Several of us here do it. Todd recently wrote “Ad multos annos!” Vic’s expression (“there is no disputing about tastes”) is the equivalent of the English idiom “there is no accounting for taste.” I can’t explain why others do it, only why I do it.

        Sometimes it seems appropriate because of the environment.; when discussing Roman liturgical matters, for example. It also seems worthwhile to me to know certain expressions, which other people (Catholic or not) use in conversation or writing. I don’t do it vengefully or spitefully, or, as you suggest, “in protest” of the vernacular.

  17. Mark Duch

    I’ve never been to a Catholic parish that had a sung Our Father, except for once in latin at St. John Cantius in Chicago. The local Episcopal parish I used to belong to had one in English, though. Shame when the local Episcopal church looks more Catholic than the Catholic church. *shrug*

  18. “I’ve never been to a Catholic parish that had a sung Our Father, except for once in latin at St. John Cantius in Chicago.”

    We have a sung Our Father in English every Sunday at the Church of Our Saviour in New York City.

    1. St. Paul’s in Cambridge, Mass., every Sunday

      1. Karl Liam Saur

        The one exception in recent years (until this year) being the invitation for everyone to recite it in their mother tongue on Pentecost.

  19. David Haas

    To Mark Duch.. I am so sorry that this particular “guitar strumming burnout” along with several other of the hippies that you name, will not be leaving the church for sometime. As for your assessment as to where all people under 40 are at, I am afraid that you data is not accurate, in terms of where “younger” people are across the board. Their tastes and views of liturgy are all over the map, and not all as purely enlightened as you seem to be. I am sorry that you do not like the “fake celtic elevator music” – but sadly for you, there are plenty of us still around. It is sad to me that you feel the need to be so nasty – do not worry – I am not hurt, as I have received similar messages before. Regardless of what you think of me… all of us, both you, and all of us who have no taste or true fidelity to the church (at least in your eyes) are all a part of this church… you cannot just choose whom you are Catholic with. As I cannot cast you and others who agree with you, aside.. we are still here. I know that you and others would like to see a lot of us leave… sorry, I plan to stay.

    Sorry – have to run.. I feel another “guitar-strumming, celtic elevator song” coming on.

  20. David Haas

    By the way, I just looked over all of my posts on this thread.. I never used the word “protest” anywhere.. I was actually referencing and reacting to the issues that Fr. Vega raised…

    Back to some more banal composing.. see you all later..

    1. Mark Duch

      Mr. Haas,

      Location of word protest: Post #1, end of first paragraph. I certainly didn’t mean to imply that you were encouraging protest. You were talking about how a bishop might handle protest, and I expressed the opinion that there wouldn’t be much protest to worry about. I’m sorry that you feel I’m being nasty or that I want you to leave the Church. It’s not the point I intended to make. I re-read my comment, and noticed the last part was cut off. It was supposed to read “politely let the Church get on with its work” (the liturgy.

      I don’t think your compositions are banal, just unsuited to the liturgy. But that doesn’t say as much about you as it says about the fact that we have differing views on what proper liturgical music is. I received Selections from New & Revised Mass Settings (GIA) today, with accompanying CD. If Mass for a New World were part of a Broadway musical about the Church, I would go watch it and enjoy it. I’m not trying to be nasty to you out of some desire that you leave the Church or something. It’s my honest opinion about the suitability of your (and others’) compositions to the Holy Mass.

      I’m sorry if that offends you personally, but it’s not meant to be nasty.

  21. Lynn Thomas

    Mr. Haas,

    Please, keep it up. I’ll be happy to ignore Mark. Children can get so cantankerous sometimes, can’t they?

    I wonder sometimes: Has anyone given serious thought to the notion that there is not, necessarily, only one possible, legitimate, style or way to worship? Officialdom would seem to favor Latin, but nothing about Latin is inherently more sacred than English. Nothing. It became the language of the church because it was the language of Rome [the Roman-in-the-street, at that] and over time the Church established its headquarters there. If the Church today were to seek a new official language, one could make very strong cases for either English or Spanish, and probably come down for English because it is more universally spoken in the world at large. But maybe not, since the vast majority of Spanish speakers are still at least nominally Catholic. In either case, it’s far easier to persuade people when you speak a language they understand.

    Musically, for all the beauty of chant and polyphony, other forms are equally beautiful and expressive. Why should we limit ourselves to ancient forms and not create new? Do parents want their children to do the same things over and over again, or to grow and express that growth? Why would anyone think that we stopped creating good music centuries ago? Sounds a bit like telling the Spirit “We don’t need You here any more; your work in this is done.”

  22. Has anyone given serious thought to the notion that there is not, necessarily, only one possible, legitimate, style or way to worship?

    Yep, they have.

    Musically, for all the beauty of chant and polyphony, other forms are equally beautiful and expressive.

    The Fathers of the Second Vatican Council wrote about the topic in Sacrosanctum Concilium:

    116. The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.

    But other kinds of sacred music, especially polyphony, are by no means excluded from liturgical celebrations, so long as they accord with the spirit of the liturgical action, as laid down in Art. 30.

    They didn’t say that chant was more beautiful, but they said that it was “specially suited to the liturgy”.

    “Why would anyone think that we stopped creating good music centuries ago?”

    There continue to be new compositions in the old style. Nobody serious thinks that we stopped creating good music. But that doesn’t mean all the new stuff (or all the old stuff) is good.

    1. Mark Duch

      Thank you for getting it, and saying it.

  23. David Haas

    Basically, I love it all… the entire galaxy of musical expressions. There is absolutely no need for any more of the “musical style wars” that seem to be heightening these days. So very, very sad. I am classically trained. I love and USE it all: chant, polyphony, choral music, hymnody, and all of the wretched and heretical contemporary styles: gospel, contemporary, pop, latino, world music… it is all great – why do we make God and our worship so small? The genres or styles should not be the criteria.. it seems to me that it should ask such questions as: does the music serve the prayer, serve the liturgical action, foster participation, help deepen the mystery, call us to conversion, be filled with sound theology.. and ultimately, call us to discipleship….

    Basically – it not so much WHAT we sing, but WHY we sing….

    Anyways… I thought that this thread was supposed to be responding to Fr. Vega’s observations and reflections, especially in regards to priests. I still believe it is a strong concern… this particular burned out hippie would love for this thread to keep talking about the issue at hand.

    Off to the elevator for some more inspiration.

  24. I love and USE it all: chant, polyphony, choral music, hymnody, and all of the wretched and heretical contemporary styles: gospel, contemporary, pop, latino, world music… it is all great – why do we make God and our worship so small? The genres or styles should not be the criteria.. it seems to me that it should ask such questions as: does the music serve the prayer, serve the liturgical action, foster participation, help deepen the mystery, call us to conversion, be filled with sound theology.. and ultimately, call us to discipleship….

    It seems hard to deny that, while each piece of music must also be judged individually, some styles may be more suited in general to the liturgy than others and some wouldn’t be appropriate at all. My philosophical training urges me to make the point in this way: The fact that some styles of music are more appropriate for the liturgy than others can be shown by the fact that some styles of music are not appropriate for the liturgy at all: Speed metal, House Music, Oi!, James Brown style funk. These seem completely innapropriate for public worship in the Roman Rite.

    If there are musical styles that are innapropriate for the Roman liturgy and there are styles that are appropriate for the liturgy, then a fortiori there are styles of music that are more appropriate than others for the Roman rite? Can we all agree to that point at least?

    1. Paul Inwood

      Samuel said It seems hard to deny that, while each piece of music must also be judged individually, some styles may be more suited in general to the liturgy than others and some wouldn’t be appropriate at all. My philosophical training urges me to make the point in this way: The fact that some styles of music are more appropriate for the liturgy than others can be shown by the fact that some styles of music are not appropriate for the liturgy at all: Speed metal, House Music, Oi!, James Brown style funk. These seem completely innapropriate for public worship in the Roman Rite.

      If there are musical styles that are innapropriate for the Roman liturgy and there are styles that are appropriate for the liturgy, then a fortiori there are styles of music that are more appropriate than others for the Roman rite? Can we all agree to that point at least?

      Actually, no, we can’t.

      This debate has been rumbling on for 40 years. Can it be said that there is any style of music that God cannot turn to good, for use in worship? No. To say so is to put limits on God. Can it be said that there are certain styles of music which fit better with certain incarnations of the Roman Rite? Yes, certainly. However, can it also be said that only one style of celebrating the Roman Rite is the correct or appropriate one? Certainly not. Try telling me that the Zaire Entrance Rite is liturgically inappropriate. No, it isn’t, and what’s more, it has been approved as OK by Rome. (ctd)

      1. Paul Inwood

        Try telling me that Latin, plainchant and 16th-century polyphony are the only appropriate style for worship. Certainly not, again.

        There are a myriad cultures, and a myriad of different liturgical styles that go with them. There is no kind of music that cannot be converted to use in worship. The key word is ‘converted’. The unadulterated phenomenon itself will need adapting to the liturgy, as indeed all music does.

        The only stumbling blocks for us are matters of taste, technique, and connotations.

        For taste, the fact that we don’t happen to like a particular musical style is not relevant to the debate. I don’t happen to like Mozart mass settings in liturgy, but my personal preference has nothing to do with the authenticity of a celebration.

        For technique, musicians need to be sure that they can actually play and sing what is on the menu. More ghastliness has been perpetrated through incompetence than through inappropriateness. A well sung and played liturgy is powerful in any style.

        For connotations, the problem lies in us, not in the music. The signature tune to Dallas is a perfectly good Common Metre hymn tune, but many of us could not use it as such because of the connotations in our minds. Anyone who had never watched the TV soap would not have this problem. Similar examples could be multiplied ad infinitum

        So, to sum up, the kind of music that can be used in liturgy is entirely determined by the ambient culture.

  25. David Haas

    While I can certainly agree with you . do you have an “objective” criteria” as to how to make such judgments.. how does one measure, “objectively” what makes something “more” appropriate. These are tough questions. It is not that I necessarily disagree with you… but what is the standard, and what stance does it come from? I would begin by exploring things such as: 1) does the music overwhelm the ritual moment? or 2) does the personality of the “leader/performer” draw attention to him or herself? These questions are some that are at the heart of my concern… however, a person singing a classical piece could be just as “guilty” of violating these principles as someone singing something in the styles of pop, funk, or whatever… so again… I am just wondering, it seems to me that these are not issues of “style” or “genre,” but rather, issues of the attitude of those leading and implementing the music itself, and whether or not the music is assembly-oriented, with good theology, linked to scripture and the liturgy… This stuff is not simple… and it is certainly hard for musical tastes to not seep into these discussions….

    1. Mark Duch

      I’m curious as to what weight you would give council documents and papal statements on the criteria?

  26. David Haas

    Mark, in response to your post earlier today… I guess I missed the “protest” reference. I do not believe it was the main emphasis of my post, however.

    Just to be clear, I am not offended personally. You have every right to not like what I or any other composer creates. You have every right to your opinion that for you, it is not suitable for the liturgy. As I said earlier, I have been criticized, attacked, demonized by many over the years. What my issue is… is your hope that we would just go away. You very clearly asked us “burnouts” to get over ourselves and stop having a creative voice or voice at all. You also clearly (and so unbelievably incorrectly) placed all people who are under 40 into your particular viewpoint. As one who works with lots of young people locally and nationally throughout the year in the age group of 17 – 40… you are just plain wrong. Their biases, opinions, and tastes are all over the map. While it might have not been your intention, you also made strong inferences that people over 40 in the church should just get out of the way – since our ecclesiology and our experience of Church is no longer relevant, even to the point of coming close to accusing us of heresy. My advice to you is not to stop being conservative or traditional.. that is fine. That does not bother me. But, in a word, my advice to you would be this – be careful and think before you write things like you wrote. Not because it personally hurts me (as I said…

  27. David Haas

    before, I am not hurt), but because it is very judgmental and not terribly reverencing of the entire people of God. All of us – whether it be Daniel Berrigan or Mother Theresa; whether it be Pat Buchanan, Mother Angelica, or Martin Sheen; whether it be the classically oriented musician of chant and the choral tradition, or those of us from the 70’s (as you put it), who are trying to in your words, “cram” our vision down your throat – all of us are part of this church. We need to be more respectful. While I may not understand why a certain piece of music can help someone pray – I believe I at least, need to honor that it does. There are styles and genres that do not help me to pray and offer praise.. but they do so for someone else. When I was in the Seminary years ago (yes, it may be difficult to believe), one of my dearest friends – he was unbelievably conservative, far right on just about everything. I was left-wing, border-line Socialist Worker Party… and yet, in the midst of it all – we never demonized the other, we reverenced and honored our stances, we never felt that the other had to be fixed or changed, we saw each other as people who cared about the church, about our faith, and yes, about the liturgy and its power to serve and transcend these “wars” that we engage in. What does it serve – whether it be conservative/traditionalist or the most liberal/progressive (for lack of better words) when we demonize the other. We are called to something higher.

    1. Mark Duch

      I think it is some hubris to consider a remark directed toward you to be disrespectful of the whole Church. I stand by what I said. I’m not sure what the problem is with being judgmental, as long as I’m not judging your soul. I am perfectly free to judge your actions and your work and your opinions. That’s how people function and make decisions, and that’s how societies operate. Please don’t deflect comments made about you and your work towards the entire Church Catholic. You know it doesn’t work that way.

      And I haven’t demonized you, David. One doesn’t have to be a demon to be dated and inappropriate. I’ve merely more-or-less stated that your music is dated and inappropriate for Mass, and you’ve not managed to come up with anything new. The adaptation for Mass of Light just doesn’t lyrically work, in my opinion, by the way.

      So, what higher thing am I called to with respect to the differences between someone like you and me? Complacency? Or should I just listen to you until I’m convinced? Sounds like the old liberal line, “Don’t you have other things to worry about that are more important, esp. when X is going on?” which is of course a logical fallacy. I believe you to be wrong in the same way you believe me to be wrong, only you have publisher, copyrights and the leg-up. Why should I just sit back and say nothing with the fear of being disrespectful, when I consider pop-music to be disrespectful to God and the faith?

      This is not about you being “the Other.” It’s about you being wrong.

      1. Mark,

        I think you might do a bit of examination of conscience with regard to your elders. You fairly consistently have used “old” or “dated” as a way of dismissing those you disagree with. You might reflect on the 4th commandment (see CCC #2199).

        If it give any more credibility to my remarks, I’m not a huge fan of David’s music. I’m much more a chant and polyphony guy myself (though I will admit to being a sucker for any hymn tune that uses a pentatonic scale). But you seem to take your own sense of righteousness as carte blanche to be insulting to those you see as being old fossils from the 70s. I am sure you see yourself as some sort of upholder of the tradition, but that is not how your come across. It takes years of immersion in the life of the Church to be a true upholder of the tradition. It’s not something you learn by watching Youtube videos of the Tridentine Mass.

      2. Mark Duch

        Deacon,

        My use of the terms “old” and “dated” are intended to modify music and/or musical styles in Mass. Not my elders. I’m an adult, David’s an adult. He can take it. Again, I’m not dismissing David, I’m engaging him with honesty and sincerity and issuing a challenge to him to change what he’s doing to bring it into conformity with the mind expressed by our Church’s leaders and the larger tradition (and yes, what I feel is good taste).

        How many years do I need to go to Mass before I can have an opinion? Currently 22 years and counting. I don’t understand where you would think I am being self-righteous. I don’t have half the skill as Mr. Haas. Nor do I really know anything about polyphony or chant, technically-speaking. But I am a lawyer, I can read and comprehend, and I am young enough to know that David’s music isn’t cool anymore. If you think it’s self-righteous to make the claim that sacred music shouldn’t be about being cool, then I don’t know what to tell you.

        I don’t view anyone as a fossil. I am trying to challenge people to not let their ideas become fossilized.

      3. Karl Liam Saur

        Mark

        Your rhetorical flights don’t match your intention in this regard. That is, learn to aim better before firing.

  28. David Haas

    Finally, in response to your last post… certainly the council documents and papal statements are part of the discernment in terms of criteria. But the council documents never point to a genre or style and say – it is inappropriate or wrong.

    1. Mark Duch

      The Council does say what /is/ appropriate, and what we ought to do though, doesn’t it? What have you done to teach all the young people you work with Gregorian chant or to be able to say the Mass parts in Latin? Please educate me.

  29. David Haas

    Good for you, Mark. God bless you.

  30. Paul Inwood

    Mark,

    May I suggest that you go back up this thread to the point, currently ## 53-4, where I react to your assumption about appropriate styles of music for the Roman Rite. There you will find the beginnings of a serious discussion about this whole area, which you have apparently ignored in the white heat of your debate with David. Far more important than tilting at perceived old fossils.

  31. John Quinn

    Back to some more banal composing.. see you all later..

    – David,
    I was recently browsing the UK hymnal ‘Laudate’. I came across many of your compositions. I found none of them banal, and all of them well-crafted, scriptural and tuneful.

    John

    John

  32. John Finn

    I think deflecting constructive and well articulated criticism by judging a poster’s expression of it is a red-herring. Just as nothing is so dated as a building constructed in a 1970’s fashion (this includes churches) the musical styles originating in that period appears dated. Chant & polyphony are timeless and as Vatican II’s doc. on the liturgy suggests, are especially suited to the Roman liturgy.
    Re #53, the Zaire rite is a separate usage within the Roman rite for select dioceses. It has one Eucharistic prayer, provides for dance in its offertory, and moved the confiteor to after the Gospel. It is promulgated as a unique usage-nothing of that kind has been done for anyone else beyond the new Anglican usage. Any suggestion that the Roman rite has no particular music especially suited to it ignores the council, repeated directives from Rome on the topic and the venerable tradition of our rite. This is why it is unjust to give contemporary musical forms the “pride of place” in parish worship that Vat. II gave to Gregorian chant & polyphony. If younger people seem unhappy about this consider what has been unjustly suppressed & taken from them for two generations now and all contrary to the council.

    Mark, thank you for your cogent & charitable commentary.

    1. John Quinn

      “If younger people seem unhappy about this consider what has been unjustly suppressed & taken from them for two generations now and all contrary to the council.”

      I’m not sure if this is really true.

      How much chant & polyphony was ever sung in US & UK parishes in the past?

      The ‘pride of place’ is balanced by ‘all things being equal’ – (See MDW).

      Is there a danger that if very popular quality biblical songs, for example: ‘Here I am … or ‘Eagles wings’ that have become traditional are abandoned in favo(u)r of chant and polyphony – the voice of the congregation could be reduced to silence.

      Latin is incomprehensible to most Mass-goers, so why introduce it?

      Polyphony, as far as I am aware, is ‘not excluded’, rather than given pride of place.

      1. Mark Duch

        “How much chant & polyphony was ever sung in US & UK parishes in the past?”

        Exactly. Vatican II attempted to remedy the problem of too many said masses by instructing that the faithful be taught to sing chant and learn the latin responses. What did we get instead? Polka and Jazz masses from protestants and their friends.

        We’re not trying to turn back the clock. The Council was held to correct problems that were real. We’re trying to encourage implementation of the Council’s solutions. Teaching the congregation latin and helping them to sing chant was the Council’s solution. It’s there, in black and white.

    2. John Quinn

      ” … it is unjust to give contemporary musical forms the “pride of place” in parish worship that Vat. II gave to Gregorian chant & polyphony.”

      – Again, I’m not sure that this is true.
      Is it really unjust, for example, to give pride of place to the music and words of Bernadette Farrell, and the superb psalm settings of Marty Haugen?

      Please do not get me wrong. I see no reason for chant & polyphony to be excluded. These were, of course originally contemporary – polyphony being a relatively recent development, as is the ever popular ‘Missa de angelis’ .

      1. Mark Duch

        Hmm… so Vatican II says do X and you’re saying it wouldn’t be unjust to do Y instead of X…. Reminds me of David Mitchell’s dialogue regarding Eve and the Serpent:

        “But God,” quotes Eve, putting out feelers for an agent provocateur, clever girl, “expressly forbids us to eat the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge.”

        “Ah yessssss, God…But God gave us a life, did He not? And God gave us desire, did He not? And God gave us taste, did He not? And who else but God made the damned apples in the first place? So what else is life for but to tassste the fruit we desire?”

        Eve folds her arms schoolgirlishly. “God expressly forbade it. Adam said.”

        The snake grins through his fangs, admiring Eve’s playacting. “God is a nice enough chap in His way. I daresay He means well. But between me, you and the Tree of Knowledge, He is terribly insecure.”

    3. John Quinn

      “Mark, thank you for your cogent & charitable commentary.”

      LOL!

      1. Mark Duch

        I’m going to ignore the cogent part and focus on your apparent view that my comments lack charity. How would you suggest I express the opinions that I expressed more charitably? I suppose I could have said to David simply that his music wasn’t my cup of tea… but that wasn’t my point. My point is that he shouldn’t be doing the music he’s doing. I suppose I could have said nothing and kept my mouth shut. But then how would that accomplish anything?

        Of course, I guess I could have just LOL’ed at David…

  33. David Haas

    I was not going to continue on this thread.. but I want to just make things clear for the record… My original posts on this thread was sharing my concern about the different ways priests will respond to all that is coming down the road, and echoing the concerns of Fr. Vega, and wondering how bishops will respond to the most likely scenario of certain priests and people showing resistance.. it was a pastoral concern. I said absolutely NOTHING about music in those posts… Mark brought up my music and work in the context of his critique of the “over 40” crowd. I did not bring up my music at all.

    Also – just to be clear again, to people who may be worried if I am HURT by things Marc said about me and my music. I am not, because first of all, that is not what I posts were about. Secondly, I am not hurt, because I have this come at me before. My challenge and critique to Marc was, and still is, if you read his original post/response to me, he was going after more than just me – he had categorized and generalized, and in my opinion, dismissed a group of people as irrelevant. If you don’t this this was the case, read his original post here, #90 – where does not go after me until the end, but truly goes after an entire group of people that are over 40. That is where my responses to him lie.. it has nothing to do with what he thinks of my music. There are lots of people who dismiss my music – that is fine, and I could care less. My issues lie (con’t)

  34. David Haas

    (ct’d) with the broader attacks, and also the method in which one is criticized. Read this what Marc said in his original post:

    “it will be certainly be from older folks who already protest everything anyway. My generation (I am 28) doesn’t “fight the power,” or attempt to “stick it to The Man.” If we don’t like something, we either bear it and wait, or we simply just leave.” Or this quote from the same post: “All the younger folks at my healthy, vibrant, suburban parish look around and stare when the guitar strumming starts, wondering when it will end.” Or this one, which I believe is the most stinging: “Those of us who actually do attend church, do it for a reason.” What about the people over 40 – they attend church, and they have reasons as well. Where does this kind of statement come from, I don’t know. I really wanted to stop and shut up after my last post yesterday.. but it is really difficult to keep silent when such irresponsible things are said. These are not directed to me, David Haas – these are directed to a whole group of people… and that is what concerns me. I must ask again, what is it about your view of the church and the liturgy, even one that attempts to base your thoughts in official church documents (which do not support your judgements, by the way) that cannot tolerate things or people that do not embrace your tastes? Why do cheap shots (using terms like “burnouts,” “hippies,” “celtic elevator music,” ) have to be…

  35. David Haas

    (ct’d) the language that you use. You can be very critical, very opposing in your thoughts and opinions, without having to resort to such comments. It is less what you say about me and other colleagues whose work you disdain, but the people of God who have for whatever reason, found in these as you say, “inappropriate” forms of worship and sung prayer, musical prayer that can enrich their life of faith. Using lines like I have “publisher and an upper leg” are just ridiculous. Just speak your different point of view, and you can do so passionately, and the challenge I am putting out is NOT, as you say in your later post, to have you just listen until you are convinced. I am not seeking to convince you to change your opinions. I am asking you to just consider taking a deep breath before you say things, and try to show a bit more sensitivity about how you talk about groups of people, over 40, and under 40. All of us have need for self-evaluation – I certainly do. I find it appropriate to reflect upon my words and behavior and actions. I humbly submit, that you might want to take a look back at some of the things you say, and reflect upon how they may be received, that is all.

    By the way, to answer one of your questions. I do teach young people chant, hymnody, and music in Latin.. I applaud and advocate for the beauty that this music brings to the liturgy. So your attempts to cast me as a “single-style” guy means you have not done your research. At our summer “Music Ministry Alive” program just two weeks ago – we had 180 young people from across the country sing not only the wretched music of Mike Joncas, Marty Haugen, Paul Tate, Lori True, Donna Pena, and myself – we also sang the “Ubi Caritas” by Durufle, Jesu Joy by Bach, the Pie Jesu by Ricky…

  36. David Haas

    (ct’d) Manalo, and in the past we have done the Ave Verum by Mozart, and many more choral works and chants. We also do Taize’, and many other genres: gospel, latino, world music by John Bell, and classical hymnody.

    Why does a variety of styles and genres that are not of your personal taste scare you so? What really is being threatened here? How are the effects of the liturgy damaged? Where is the scandal that lessens the grace of the Eucharist in singing and praying in the blending of the many musical colors that we have? When you speak of tradition – whose tradition are you speaking of? What harm is really being done? What about those who would disavow your musical leanings (which by the way is not me, as I said, I love chant and polyphony and latin as much as anyone)? Are they lost?

    I know I said I should shut up… in the end, I am sure everything I am saying means nothing or does not encourage any kind of mutuality, at least on your end.

    God bless.

  37. John Finn

    Not directed to me but I’d like to respond to offer a possible explanation.

    David asked Mark:

    1. “…what is it about your view of the church (sic) and the liturgy, even one that attempts to base your thoughts in official church documents (which do not support your judgements (sic), by the way) that cannot tolerate things or people that do not embrace your tastes?”

    David, leaving aside the fact that ecclesiastical documents do support much that Mark has written, the indignation that you’ve perceived in his writing can be gleaned from your own comments above. Here is an example:

    You wrote: “There are lots of people who dismiss my music – that is fine, and I could care less.”

    Pastorally, this is a problematic position to hold but you have to realize than many listeners do not choose to hear these contemporary compositions at Mass & must endure them. Understand that devout Catholics are compelled under the pain of mortal sin to assist at Mass on Sundays and holy days and the fact that musical forms are imposed on these same devout people despite the fact that a different musical form is supposed to hold “pride of place” in parish worship. In other words, you are dealing with many reluctant but informed listeners, a captive audience, who know something different could be there but there is nothing they can do to change the situation. Parish leadership is deaf to them and other parishes are too distant.

    I noticed my posts have been held/suppressed…

  38. John Finn

    ctd.

    … and I don’t know why.

    David goes on to ask Mark and I can’t speak for him but I’d like to add

    “When you speak of tradition – whose tradition are you speaking of?

    John: The Roman rite, the tradition of the Church of Rome.

    “What harm is really being done?”

    John: people are denied their own liturgical heritage, the prayer of the Roman tradition. It also ignores the directive of Vatican II to give pride of place to chant & polyphony.

    “What about those who would disavow your musical leanings…Are they lost?”

    John: No, they may find that the Church’s own musical heritage is superior or we may be able to use these more contemporary compositions in other settings. At present, those who are attracted to the more traditional forms are neglected almost wholesale while, in irony, the Church’s documents continue to call for what these neglected parishioners seek.

    1. Mark Duch

      Thanks, John. I believe I am comfortable with you speaking for me.

      “Understand that devout Catholics are compelled under the pain of mortal sin to assist at Mass on Sundays and holy days and the fact that musical forms are imposed on these same devout people despite the fact that a different musical form is supposed to hold “pride of place” in parish worship.”

      Spot on.

  39. LF Gentile

    Dear Mark, I remember when I was 28 and thought that I knew everything. As God forms us through our living, we hope to shake off arrogant certainty and begin to take on the heart and mind of Christ. Blessings on your journey.

    1. Mark Duch

      I believe that Christ and his Church have sure and certain answers. If you’re asking me to become a mere “seeker” and disavow objective morality and the truth of the Catholic religion, you won’t get very far with me. I tried the Episcopal Church for a while and found it wanting. Although I must say their liturgies can be astounding…

  40. David Haas

    John.. while I may agree or disagree with you on your responses to me… I find it interesting that you are not at all addressing, the major force in my posts here… and that is the tone and pitch of the criticism and rhetoric… why the cheap shots, for example?

    Every instance you note for people who feel alienated and harmed by the newer and contemporary genres – the exact same thing can be said for many people who alienated and detached from the liturgy because of traditional music, chant and polyphony…. you are right, people who do not care for the genres of music that I and other compose with, have to as you say, “endure them.” The same is true for many who have to “endure” Pange Lingua or other pieces from the more traditional treasury (which again by the way, I love and also use myself), because it does not speak to their experience or their particular palette of prayer. So do we have the same equal concern for them?

    People are denied their liturgical heritage? Really? If that is truly the case, then why are not praying and singing everything in Greek, since that was the language before Latin. All of us (and yes, I can do this myself sometimes) can contrive our own arguments to our tastes. But if you want to talk about liturgical heritage – where do you begin? The liturgy did NOT originate in Rome, and did not originate with Latin. That is what I mean when I challenge all of us when we throw the word “tradition” around. Tradition is not…

  41. David Haas

    nostalgia or leaning on things that we cling to for historical reasons. Hopefully the tradition is deeper than that – the tradition of Jesus Christ: his life, his death, his resurrection, and the power that this truth has in our lives.

    And I happen to be one of the crazy people who believe that when we talk about the divine, about the transcendent, it contains a galaxy of expressions and vehicles of communication to help render its praise. And I am sorry, if you want to throw documents and quotes at me.. there are just as many that support this stance.

    But beyond these issues – which I am sure so many of us will take different stances on… is not the issue I am raising. It is good that there is disagreement and differences of opinions… this is how we learn.

    What I am concerned about it the TONE that truly tears people apart sometimes, that does nothing to build anything life-giving. Unless we start finding some gentler and more adult and respectful ways of expressing ourselves, the polarization will just turn into poison. Passionate disagreement? No problem.. I want that, and I engage in that. We should be passionate.. but I believe the tone that Marc seems to take on these things in many respects does nothing but break the body down. He might think he is not doing that.. I would disagree.

    Is the purpose of the liturgy to NOT OFFEND people’s tastes and sensibilities?.. Or is a part of it, at least – to pull us beyond ourselves to see and recognize that we are both a church with a sacred “tradition,” yes, but we are also a pilgrim church on the way, always discovering new paths and vehilces to express our praise.

  42. Mark Duch

    There is more than one liturgy of the Church, David. We are Catholics in the Roman (Latin) rite. Latin is our official language.

    The Catholic Church does not believe in multiple vehicles to the transcendent, David. It believes in One Lord, Jesus Christ. I’m sure you know that, and I’m sorry to throw the Creed at you (with it’s non-gentle pronouncements and certainties) but I think it’s important to watch the language that we use so people don’t get the idea that religious syncretism or indifferentism is a valid point of view.

  43. Mark Duch

    Only comments with a full name will be approved.

    Karl Liam Saur :

    Mark
    Your rhetorical flights don’t match your intention in this regard. That is, learn to aim better before firing.

    There are two way to fight a war, my friend. One way is to (as you suggest) let everyone aim as they wish. Another (which I prefer) is to get a whole lot of people aiming the same way. I am sorry that you don’t appreciate my rhetoric, but it’s a lot easier to get people on board with simple, easy to understand themes, than it is to talk them to death. Movements need followers, and simple mantras are best. There’s a whole lot of commandments behind “love your neighbor” but Jesus knew how to keep it simple.

    1. Anthony Ruff, OSB Avatar
      Anthony Ruff, OSB

      Mark,

      I have a general response to your many comments. It’s a wise line I recently heard: “Being right is over-rated.” When I was 22 I knew everything, and I thought that if I only overstated strongly enough, and put down others’ opinions enough, they would “get it.” Now I think that convincing others isn’t the best or highest goal in life. Even if one wins, one really loses because it’s not satisfying. Only God is. And God’s love uniting us to other people. Much more satisfying is admitting that “we only know a little” and being open to others’ wisdom. I experience the Spirit in my life especially by the call to LET GO of my own biases. (My friends would say I’m not real good at this, however!) When I hold to anything – no matter how true – with too much attachment or emotional energy, I now take it as a sign that I’m idolizing my own view and I must let go of something. I believe the spiritual masters call this “detachment.” It’s a lifetime task.

      But – I guess I could be wrong about all this :).

      I would ask you to tone it down – and also to post much less frequently. I’d rather not have to step in as moderator but I certainly will if necessary.

      awr

      1. Mark Duch

        Father,

        I apologize for the numerous posts. When 14 people responded to me directly, I assumed it was okay to respond to each of them. But come to think of it, there have been very few responses to what I actually said, but many, many responses about me personally (most of them insulting my age or intelligence). I now understand that I need to wait until I’m older to have an opinion. Once I reach the sufficient age, I will be sure to come back here if I decide I don’t feel strongly (or I do feel liberal) about anything. Until then, you can disable my account.

      2. Actually, Mark, they were about your manners, not your age or intelligence. And the fact that so many people commented on this rather than the substance of your comments might indicate wither that people 1) more or less agree with the substance but find the style distasteful, or 2) find the style so distasteful they are not able to even engage with the substance. If you want your arguments to gain a hearing, you might listen a bit to the 14-some people who took issue with your style.

  44. David Haas

    Mark, once again it is obvious that you did not really read what I said, and it is obvious that you have not done so with many things that I have said… you read into things, and presume things that I (and you do so with others who post here) have never said. I never said that were not Catholics in the Roman (Latin) Rite.. I simply said that if one wants to talk about liturgical”heritage” you have to look at ALL of our heritage, not just one part of it (meaning, that Greek was our original liturgical language, not latin). I also did not say that there multiple vehicles to the transcendent. What I am saying (please read again) that the EXPRESSIONS that move us toward that transcendent are numerous, that there is not ONE SINGULAR expression (which includes the art of music) to approach the holy.

    Go ahead and throw the Creed at me.. but remember what the original Creed was (since you love “tradition” so much.)
    The original creed was pure and simple: JESUS CHRIST IS LORD. That cannot be disputed.

    Also – again and again.. you are not addressing the main focus of my challenge.. and that is regarding tone and your manner of disagreement.. not that you disagree.

    So, I have to say – I really need to desist from this conversation.. take good care, Marc.. I wish you the bets.

    1. Mark Duch

      You are right that I misread your comment about the vehicles to expression. Forgive me, the language you used was language that I have seen used to describe syncretism before, but I read too quickly. You are correct that there are many different rites in the Church. But don’t worry, I’m outta here. Please let my last comment to you be an apology for misreading your post and ascribing a view to you that you do not hold. And please know that it is sincere. Take care, David.

  45. Bill deHaas

    Article from NCR posted in April: http://ncronline.org/news/faith-parish/dc-liturgy-cappa-magna-glorious-music-latin-glitches

    Comment about this article from Mark Duch in April – says it all:
    “Submitted by Mark Duch (not verified) on Apr. 29, 2010.
    Amen, Amen, and I say, Amen! Mass is meant to take us to heaven, where the streets will be paved with gold and God demands to be worshiped how HE desires to be worshiped (hint: read Revelation and its description of golden thrones and fancy altars, etc). Mass is not meant to be a celebration of ourselves or our “community”, or some sort of reaffirmation of baby boomers’ personal preferences for entertainment and love for bad imitations of Joan Baez music. This is just one more article by a liberal who thinks that people in the pews are too stooooopid to understand what’s going on in the liturgy that nurtured so many saints throughout the history of our Church. The people in the pews were not forced to be there, nor were they failing to actively participate. Ask anyone who was there to worship what they were doing during the liturgy, and they will tell you they were participating in prayer, joining in the sacrifice of the Mass, directed toward Almighty God. People like the author complain about “bureaucratic Rome” somehow “forcing” liturgies on people, but it seems these folks were silent in the period from 1963-1979, when “bureaucratic Rome” and hippie Bishops took away the peoples’ liturgy, desecrated and…

  46. Bill deHaas

    cont…..”defaced their altars of sacrifice, took the tabernacles out of their churches, and forced them to learn a new language (What on Earth does “Kumbaya” mean, anyway?) I’m young, and let me tell you something. It’s you baby boomer hippies who are doing all the dictating around here. We HATE your guitar strumming music because it is BAD. We don’t hate you, and we don’t hate active participation in the liturgy. What we hate is disobedience of the successors of the Apostles, and disrespect for the liturgy that has saved the souls and made saints of so many and that causes man to lift his senses to the heavens, instead of wallow in the abstract simplicity of Earth and the celebration and acceptance of humanity’s faults.”

    Sad!

  47. John Finn

    David,

    You asked:

    1). “(About those who prefer contemporary compositions) So do we have the same equal concern for them?”
    John: No, b/c VII gave “pride of place” to G. chant and polyphony-we have to hear the council. The traditional forms are also especially suited to the Roman rite. We cannot claim that the people would not prefer G. chant when we’ve neglected the council’s call and suppressed it for two generations.

    2). “…why are not praying and singing everything in Greek…”

    JF: Because VII calls us to the Latin and we are part of the Latin rite not the Greek. Let’s hear the council in this.
    The Latin rite is a sui iuris Church with her own legitimate tradition. Denying this is impossible.

    3) “I am sorry, if you want to throw documents and quotes at me.. there are just as many that support this stance.”

    JF: I don’t believe that is true. Especially not after the 1985 extraordinary synod of bishops.

    4) “…when we talk about the divine … it contains a galaxy of expressions and vehicles of communication to help render its praise”

    JF But we are speaking of the Roman rite & Roman parishes. There are other legitimate rites too. That is our diversity.

    5). “Unless we …(find)…a more adult and respectful ways of expressing ourselves, the polarization will just turn into poison. .. We should be passionate..”

    I really don’t see anything more than what you call “passionate” from Mark or any other more traditional poster here…

    1. Mark Duch

      Thanks for the defense, John… But I’m done here. I’ve asked father to remove my temptation to post any more. Apparently now other people can post for me, though, like Bill deHaas, so I’m afraid my comments will live on after I’m gone (har har)!

      Good luck, though.

  48. John Finn

    David, sidestepping a reference to the creed with a reference to Jesus, the original creed is a red herring.

    I don’t know what to say about Bill reposting Mark’s words from another website. It appears to violate web etiquette & I am sadly amazed that Mark would be disciplined by our web master and told to “post less frequently” while no public admonitions are made toward the baiting behavior from progressive posters. It appears to be a classic double standard. Have any progressive posters been told that they have “many” posts (implication of too many) or that they risk idolizing their own views?

    It leaves the impression that progressive rudeness is tolerable while assertive/passionate and well informed traditionalists are subject to a different standard. Is the goal to become an echo-chamber where posters discuss how bad Rome is, how pathetic the traditionalists are, and how gifted the real “thinking Catholics” remain despite the turns Rome and the bishops have taken with the sacred liturgy.

    1. Anthony Ruff, OSB Avatar
      Anthony Ruff, OSB

      1. In my judgment there is not a problem quoting what is on the web – it’s already public. This happens all over the web.

      2. The interpretation of our Comments Policy will of course be subjective. We do our best but don’t always get it right. In this case, though, I’m pretty sure that the commenter in question was outside the policy by his attitude, his level of being accurately informed, his treatment of others.

      3. FWIW, Bishop Chaput, hardly a wilting liberal, said recently that the email he gets from conservatives is nastier and more disrespectful than what he gets from liberals. His experience is similar to mine.

      Pax,
      awr

  49. David Haas

    John, I cannot speak to who gets challenged and who does not about how they act on these posts. Now I just feel sad about what has transpired here. I can say John, that there are progressive/liberals, as you call them, who go too far on things as well. My issue in this whole mess was never a
    “liberal vs. conservative” thing… as the cliche’ goes, “some of my best friends are conservatives.” My issue and intent all along in this was the “tone” of how things and feelings and opinions were being shared, that is all. I am confused as to how we got there.. when I feel what I was originally talking about was Fr. Vega’s comments about priests. I am sorry and apologize for any thing on my part that not helpful or negative.

  50. Paul Inwood

    The ultimate answer to Mark is along the lines of one that I have mentioned before: it’s impossible to dialogue with people who are convinced that they hold the fullness of the truth. When people stop thinking that their particular opinion is the only thing that is valid, then a conversation becomes possible. You can’t learn anything if your mind is closed. We can all learn if our minds are open.

    This means that it’s OK to disagree with what others say or think. And it may be that through processing this disagreement you will be changed, or you will discover something else to help support your own opinion that you had not known about before. Either way, growth will come through tension.

    What’s not OK is to maintain that what you say or think is the only possible opinion. And it’s certainly not OK to try and support your opinion by saying that this is what the Church thinks, because almost certainly this will not be true.

    And it’s no good adducing Church documents to bolster that position, because they won’t. Especially not recently, when Church documents contain so many internal contradictions (look at Redemptionis Sacramentum, to quote one notorious example) that anyone can make them say anything they want. We have already admitted to ourselves on this blog that documents are useless in the abstract. They need a context, and they need to be interpreted by those qualified to do so.

    It’s good to talk, but it’s also good to listen.

  51. David Haas

    Amen to that, Paul.

  52. Ceile De

    I am going to assume that Fr Ruff has not yet seen Bill de Haas’s outburst of 2.25pm.

    Otherwise, I am at a loss as to why there has been no rebuke by him (or by any of the other editors) of this unprofessional and unchristian “diagnosis by internet”.

    Mark Duch is invited by Fr Ruff to post less in a debate largely between him and David Haas where, at the time of posting, Mark had posted (by my quick count) 258 lines and David had posted 359 lines! (Ah, but the lines were different…)

    I look forward to when the editors do see Bill’s comment. If it is fine by them, I think that will have serious implications for this site. I trust, however, that it will be appropriately dealt with.

  53. John Quinn

    “My point is that he shouldn’t be doing the music he’s doing. ”

    – Why not?

  54. John Finn

    Paul said:

    “And it’s no good adducing Church documents to bolster that position, because they won’t. Especially not recently, when Church documents contain so many internal contradictions (look at Redemptionis Sacramentum, to quote one notorious example) that anyone can make them say anything they want.”

    I guess that is what one must claim when one is not pleased with what the docs. actually do say. Redemptionis Sacramentum is quite clear to me. The 1985 Extraordinary Synod points us in the right direction re. the docs of Vatican II:
    “it is not legitimate to separate the spirit and the letter of the Council. Moreover, the Council must be understood in continuity with the great tradition of the Church … The Church is one and the same throughout all the councils” (5).

    1. Paul Inwood

      John,

      If you remember, the draft of RS was sent around to the world’s bishops for comment. (Everyone was very interested in it, because the rumour at the time was that this document would ban liturgical dance. In the event, neither the draft nor the final document even mentioned it.)

      The bishops of the world protested volubly. “You simply can’t say this” they objected, in numerous places.

      What happened? Instead of rewriting the document, replacing all the purple patches with the substitutions that the bishops proposed, those in the Congregation responsible (if that word can be used — perhaps with a lot of irony?) for the editing simply left what they had originally written in place, and added in the bishops’ points immediately afterwards. Thus you have paragraphs which say two different things one after the other. Crazy!

  55. John Finn

    Paul said: “it’s impossible to dialogue with people who are convinced that they hold the fullness of the truth.”

    The above is an absolute statement that pretty much leaves Catholics out of the conversation if they hold to Vat. II’s Decree on Ecumenism (UR) #’s 3 & 4 and CCC # 819.

  56. Ceile De

    John: That’s what I don’t get about here. The “other side” is happy to point to V2 and post-V2 documents justifying their position. When we point out the text of those documents and the conditions or limits we’re told not to get hung up on documents. It’s ridiculous and intellectually unsustainable as it boils down to cherry-picking the bits they like. I don’t think I’m being proud, rigid, or rudimentary when I say we’re all bound by all the documents including the bits we don’t like. Why’s it just my opinion when I quote from the CCC? I may not like what I quote but I accept it. It’s like the debate over altar girls on another thread – their use is licit even if I might have hesitated to make that call. Or EMHC’s – their use is also illicit but only in certain circumstances. It seems every time the Vatican gives an inch, our confreres take a mile – and then they wonder why the Vatican won’t give any more inches. Oy.

  57. John Finn

    Fr. Ruff wrote:

    “Bishop Chaput, hardly a wilting liberal, said recently that the email he gets from conservatives is nastier and more disrespectful than what he gets from liberals. His experience is similar to mine.”

    Without definitions this is difficult to interpret. To His Excellency a conservative might be someone in the SSPX but to some on this list a conservative is anyone who supports the forthcoming translation of the vernacular Mass together with Rome’s effort in that process.

    Not the same thing.

    1. This is what Bishop Chaput actually said:

      “The left mail I get will use terrible words but be less vitriolic. They use the F-word and things like that, call me names like that. But the right is meaner, but they’re not as foul.”

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