{"id":3791,"date":"2010-08-22T10:07:58","date_gmt":"2010-08-22T15:07:58","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/praytellblog.com\/?p=3791"},"modified":"2010-12-27T00:09:03","modified_gmt":"2010-12-27T06:09:03","slug":"through-him-with-him-in-him","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/praytellblog.com\/index.php\/2010\/08\/22\/through-him-with-him-in-him\/","title":{"rendered":"Through him, with him, in him&#8230;"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>1<strong> Through him, with him, in him,<\/strong> [current]<br \/>\n3<strong> in the unity of the Holy Spirit,<br \/>\n<\/strong>4<strong> all glory and honor is yours,<br \/>\n<\/strong>2<strong> almighty Father,<br \/>\n<\/strong>5<strong> for ever and ever.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>This current text of the doxology is quite good, I think. The language of our current sacramentary in many places is rather flat and pedestrian, but this isn\u2019t one of them. This rendering also accounts for the Latin almost entirely, with the exception of <em>Deo Patri<\/em> becoming just \u201cFather.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>The line order differs from the Latin, but I think the nature of the English language justifies this. Here is the Latin.<\/p>\n<p>1 \u00a0\u00a0<strong>Per ipsum et cum ipso et in ipso<\/strong> [Latin]<strong><br \/>\n<\/strong>2<strong> est tibi Deo Patri omnipotenti,<br \/>\n<\/strong>3<strong> in unitate Spritus Sancti,<br \/>\n<\/strong>4<strong> omnis honor et gloria,<br \/>\n<\/strong>5<strong> per omnia s\u00e6cula s\u00e6culorum.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>But Latin can say <em>Benedictus vidit Anthonium<\/em> or <em>Anthonium vidit Benedictus<\/em>, either of which\u00a0are translated \u201cBenedict sees Anthony.\u201d The great fun of Latin syntax, with its case system and its gendered nouns and adjectives, is that it can play with word order in ways English can\u2019t. The Latin speaker would hear the datives in line 2 <em>(Deo, Patri, omnipotenti<\/em>)<em> <\/em>and by instinct expect a nominative subject to go with the dative of the possessor. The Latin speaker would not be thrown off by the seeming interruption of line 3 because it has an ablative followed by two genetives. The mind formed by Latin syntax would naturally connect line 2 and line 4. Not so English. Hence the line order of the current doxology.<\/p>\n<p>The 2008 <em>recognitio<\/em> text had this.<\/p>\n<p>1<strong> Through him, and with him, and in him,<\/strong> [2008]<strong><br \/>\n<\/strong>2<strong> to you, O God, almighty Father,<br \/>\n<\/strong>3<strong> in the unity of the Holy Spirit,<br \/>\n<\/strong>4<strong> is all honor and glory,<br \/>\n<\/strong>5<strong> for ever and ever.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>This isn\u2019t bad either. Obviously the line order now follows the Latin, but I think it works. It is slightly unnatural to separate lines 2 and 4, and the English speaker has to struggle ever so slightly to connect \u201cto you\u2026is all honor and glory,\u201d but I think this would happen with repeated use. The literal following of Latin in line 1 with an \u201cand\u201d for each <em>et<\/em> seems slightly awkward to me, but this could just be a matter of what I\u2019m accustomed to.<\/p>\n<p>But hang on. Here\u2019s what we\u2019re getting now.<\/p>\n<p>1<strong> Through him, and with him, and in him,<\/strong> [2010]<strong><br \/>\n<\/strong>2<strong> O God, almighty Father,<br \/>\n<\/strong>3<strong> in the unity of the Holy Spirit,<br \/>\n<\/strong>4<strong> all glory and honor is yours,<br \/>\n<\/strong>5<strong> for ever and ever.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Something has gone off the rails here. Now we have the Latin line order, but <em>without the Latin syntax!<\/em> Line 2 is now entirely in the vocative case, unlike the Latin. It addresses God the Father directly. But this doesn\u2019t work. We need either the line order of the current doxology or the syntax of the 2008 text. By using the line order of the Latin but not its syntax, line 3 is now left hanging and doesn\u2019t quite make sense. The listener now connects it to line 2 which was just heard, but in fact it belongs with lines 1 and 4. The 2008 text, by putting line 2 in the English dative (of course by means of a preposition rather than case ending), signaled to the listener that line 3 is bracketed and line 4 completes the thought.<\/p>\n<p>This is not good at all. If there is one thing that priests sing at English Mass, it is this doxology. Many priests don\u2019t sing the preface. (Mike McMahon of NPM once estimated to me that perhaps 95% of Sunday Masses have a spoken preface. Even taking into account that he\u2019s on the east coast and not in the Midwest, that sounds about right to me.) Few priests sing the entire Eucharistic prayer, or the dialogues such as greetings and the dismissal. But almost every priest sings \u201cThrough him, with him, in him.\u201d This is something we wanted to get right.<\/p>\n<p>But I\u2019m just one voice. Is there anyone out there who wishes to defend the new doxology text??<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Is there anyone out there who wishes to defend the new doxology wording??<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":27,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[24],"tags":[719,317],"class_list":["post-3791","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-translation-new-missal","tag-comparing-translations","tag-doxology"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v27.5 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/product\/yoast-seo-wordpress\/ -->\n<title>Through him, with him, in him... - Home<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/praytellblog.com\/index.php\/2010\/08\/22\/through-him-with-him-in-him\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Through him, with him, in him... - Home\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"Is there anyone out there who wishes to defend the new doxology wording??\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/praytellblog.com\/index.php\/2010\/08\/22\/through-him-with-him-in-him\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"Home\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:published_time\" content=\"2010-08-22T15:07:58+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:modified_time\" content=\"2010-12-27T06:09:03+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:image\" content=\"https:\/\/praytellblog.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2019\/02\/pt.jpg\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:width\" content=\"411\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:height\" content=\"90\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:type\" content=\"image\/jpeg\" \/>\n<meta name=\"author\" content=\"Anthony Ruff, OSB\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:label1\" content=\"Written by\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data1\" content=\"Anthony Ruff, OSB\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:label2\" content=\"Est. reading time\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data2\" content=\"3 minutes\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\\\/\\\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"Article\",\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/praytellblog.com\\\/index.php\\\/2010\\\/08\\\/22\\\/through-him-with-him-in-him\\\/#article\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/praytellblog.com\\\/index.php\\\/2010\\\/08\\\/22\\\/through-him-with-him-in-him\\\/\"},\"author\":{\"name\":\"Anthony Ruff, OSB\",\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/praytellblog.com\\\/#\\\/schema\\\/person\\\/1f253be22c50796444dc3d93f75cb50a\"},\"headline\":\"Through him, with him, in him&#8230;\",\"datePublished\":\"2010-08-22T15:07:58+00:00\",\"dateModified\":\"2010-12-27T06:09:03+00:00\",\"mainEntityOfPage\":{\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/praytellblog.com\\\/index.php\\\/2010\\\/08\\\/22\\\/through-him-with-him-in-him\\\/\"},\"wordCount\":665,\"commentCount\":48,\"publisher\":{\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/praytellblog.com\\\/#organization\"},\"keywords\":[\"Comparing Translations\",\"Doxology\"],\"articleSection\":[\"Translation \\\/ New Missal\"],\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"CommentAction\",\"name\":\"Comment\",\"target\":[\"https:\\\/\\\/praytellblog.com\\\/index.php\\\/2010\\\/08\\\/22\\\/through-him-with-him-in-him\\\/#respond\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/praytellblog.com\\\/index.php\\\/2010\\\/08\\\/22\\\/through-him-with-him-in-him\\\/\",\"url\":\"https:\\\/\\\/praytellblog.com\\\/index.php\\\/2010\\\/08\\\/22\\\/through-him-with-him-in-him\\\/\",\"name\":\"Through him, with him, in him... - Home\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/praytellblog.com\\\/#website\"},\"datePublished\":\"2010-08-22T15:07:58+00:00\",\"dateModified\":\"2010-12-27T06:09:03+00:00\",\"breadcrumb\":{\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/praytellblog.com\\\/index.php\\\/2010\\\/08\\\/22\\\/through-him-with-him-in-him\\\/#breadcrumb\"},\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"ReadAction\",\"target\":[\"https:\\\/\\\/praytellblog.com\\\/index.php\\\/2010\\\/08\\\/22\\\/through-him-with-him-in-him\\\/\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"BreadcrumbList\",\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/praytellblog.com\\\/index.php\\\/2010\\\/08\\\/22\\\/through-him-with-him-in-him\\\/#breadcrumb\",\"itemListElement\":[{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":1,\"name\":\"Home\",\"item\":\"https:\\\/\\\/praytellblog.com\\\/\"},{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":2,\"name\":\"Through him, with him, in him&#8230;\"}]},{\"@type\":\"WebSite\",\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/praytellblog.com\\\/#website\",\"url\":\"https:\\\/\\\/praytellblog.com\\\/\",\"name\":\"Home\",\"description\":\"Worship, Wit &amp; 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Anthony Ruff, OSB, is a monk of St. John's Abbey. He teaches liturgy, liturgical music, and Gregorian chant at St. John's University School of Theology-Seminary. He is widely published and frequently presents across the country on liturgy and music. He is the author of Sacred Music and Liturgical Reform: Treasures and Transformations, and of Responsorial Psalms for Weekday Mass: Advent, Christmas, Lent, Easter. 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Anthony Ruff, OSB, is a monk of St. John's Abbey. He teaches liturgy, liturgical music, and Gregorian chant at St. John's University School of Theology-Seminary. He is widely published and frequently presents across the country on liturgy and music. He is the author of Sacred Music and Liturgical Reform: Treasures and Transformations, and of Responsorial Psalms for Weekday Mass: Advent, Christmas, Lent, Easter. 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