Austrian “Lay Initiative” Calls for Grading the Bishops

In a press release on Thursday the “Lay Initiative” called on Austrian Catholics to evaluate their bishops. On their website they have made available a simple form for downloading.

“In the context of its activities the Lay Initiative offers all members of the Catholic Church the opportunity to submit an evaluation of the bishops in this paschal season of penance,” writes the chairman of the Initiative and former parliament member, Herbert Kohlmaier (People’s Party), in the press release.

With the “Questionnaire for Evaluation of Bishops” at the website of the Lay Initiative, the Austrian bishops can be judged on the following points according to the grading system of schools: leadership qualities, human friendliness and solidarity with the people, openness, encouragement of ecumenism, encouragement of lay collaboration – especially of women, collaboration with Catholic associations and organizations, quality as supervisor.

Publication after Easter

“With this action, now carried out for the first time, we intend to contribute to an overdue rethinking: It is not Catholics who are accountable to the hierarchy, but rather, the bishops are responsible to the church’s faithful, at whose charge they must contribute their service,” said Kohlmair.

According to the press release, the collation of the questionnaire will take place with strict preservation of anonymity. After Easter the results will be conveyed to the bishops and announced to the public.

H/T: ORF.

Anthony Ruff, OSB

Fr. Anthony Ruff, OSB, is a monk of St. John's Abbey. He teaches liturgy, liturgical music, and Gregorian chant at St. John's University School of Theology-Seminary. He is widely published and frequently presents across the country on liturgy and music. He is the author of Sacred Music and Liturgical Reform: Treasures and Transformations, and of Responsorial Psalms for Weekday Mass: Advent, Christmas, Lent, Easter. He does priestly ministry at the neighboring community of Benedictine sisters in St. Joseph.

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Comments

53 responses to “Austrian “Lay Initiative” Calls for Grading the Bishops”

  1. Claire Mathieu

    Very funny. But the criteria are strange. What about the effectiveness of preaching?

    Reply
  2. Gregg Smith

    The same tool should be used in Parishes for Pastors. Along with providing Pastors with valuable feedback (which they don’t get once they leave the Seminary) it would weed out the ones who don’t want to celebrate the Sacraments (like Sunday Eucharist – “let’s cut the Gloria…and I’ll skp the homily – I want to watch the (Insert sport) game) but enjoy the “benefits” of being a Priest. It happens way too often.

    Reply
    1. Terri Miyamoto

      I’d bet that if we were to poll churchgoers about Sunday Mass, things like cutting the Gloria and skipping the homily would be voted in by a significant margin.

      Reply
      1. Ray Marshall

        How come the word “vote” comes up on this blog so often?

    2. Jack Feehily

      The idea of an accountability tool for pastors is not a bad idea, but one that would need a lot of work before being implemented. Your snide remark about priests cutting the Gloria or skipping the homily so as to catch a ballgame is ridiculous. You would have no way whatsoever of determining that such activities “happen way too often”.

      Reply
      1. Gregg Smith

        It wasn’t a snide remark. It was the truth.

  3. Jeremy Stevens

    Back when the Church started allowing family members to speak at the end of funeral Masses, the Archdiocese published official guidelines. Something like:

    1. All remarks must be printed up at least 24 hours before the funeral Mass and given to the Pastor.
    2. The content must be in accord with Catholic teaching.
    3. The remarks must be coherent: there should be a) an introduction b) no more than three points c) a conclusion
    4. The remarks cannot exceed FIVE MINUTES in length.

    The local newspaper got ahold of these guidelines and added: “These are all great points. Let’s make a deal with the Archdiocese: if the priests start following these guidelines for their Sunday homilies (replacing the Pastor in point 1 with an elected member of the parish), then the laypeople will agree to follow them for funerals.

    Every time I hear a priest complain about the family remarks they’ve heard at the end of funerals, I feel like telling them: now you know how we feel on most Sundays!

    Reply
  4. Rita Ferrone

    Hi Claire, I don’t think this is at all funny. (But maybe you meant this ironically?) I think this is a reflection of a state of crisis that has been building.

    I am planning a trip to Austria, and have been reading the Blue Guide. These guides, if anyone is not familiar with them, generally provide an understated and non-partisan view. There I read the following:

    “Part of the recent crisis in the Austrian church may be attributed to a mass exit provoked by Pope John Paul II’s disastrous policy of packing the hierarchy with reactionary clerics, as well as to scandals such as the exposure of the homosexual molestation of minors by a very senior prelate, much exacerbated by the church’s initial attempts to cover up the affair.”

    I experienced a shock seeing this written in the Blue Guide, of all places, even though I know these things are true. My surprise is a reflection of how buffered my own “zone” of awareness is concerning the place of my church in the wider society. I am so used to thinking that my church is noble and good. I forget that it is a disgraced church now. It has been defaced by toleration of criminal activity and by a deeply disastrous use of its power. I forget that these are facts which no amount of denial will remove. Facts that cannot be wished away, facts which must be reckoned with. To evaluate bishops is a revolutionary gesture, one that turns over the assumption that they rightly occupy unassailable positions of power and authority. In its way is an attempt to reckon with realities on the ground the existence of which is denied by the present structure.

    Reply
  5. Claire Mathieu

    Yes, I agree that evaluating bishops is a revolutionary gesture. It’s the contrast between that unexpected gesture and the standard attitude of deference (or of indifference) that I find funny, The disconnect is humorous, or at least, it fits my personal sense of humor.

    That’s not to say that it is silly. Not at all! “Funny” was not meant as a criticism. It’s an interesting initiative, more hopeful than turning away from the church hierarchy. It indicates that people still have expectations.

    It makes me wonder what kind of questions might fit the role of a bishop:
    – Is he a good preacher? Does he inspire people to come forward for lay or ordained ministry?
    – If he a good steward? Is the budget balanced, and are his financial priorities consistent with the needs of the people?
    – Is he a good manager? Does he assign priests to parishes that are a good match for the priest’s talents? Does he make them happy, energetic and hopeful?
    – Is he addressing the most pressing issues of this period? Is he effective in dealing with the sexual abuse scandal?
    – Is he approachable? Does he visit the diocesan parishes regularly? Does he answer letters? Does he listen to people during his visits? Is he in tune with the faithful of the diocese? Is he good at dealing with Catholics of many stripes and tastes?
    – Is he personally holy? Does he draw people into the church? Is it possible to sometimes see Christ in him?
    – Overall, has his time as a bishop so far been a net benefit for the diocese? Has he shown initiative, and were those initiatives helpful or detrimental? What have been the fruits of his presence so far?

    This is the kind of questions that I might ask.

    Reply
    1. Jay Taylor

      This is an interesting list, to which we might add or subtract a few questions based on our expectations. What would also be interesting to know is, in considering candidates for bishop, what traits are sought out? Also, from the time a priest is ordained, what “professional development” is available to help him have more of the attributes his flock (small or large) needs?

      Let me also ask if the Pope drew up a list of what he’s looking for in bishops, would it look anything like this list? (please avoid snarky comments about going along to get along.) Let’s assume doctrinal orthodoxy is a pre-requisite; but what else?

      Reply
      1. Bill deHaas

        Mr. Taylor – you might be interested in this article and documentation from the church in Australia – it would also apply in the US:

        http://www.catholica.com.au/gc1/pc/002_pc_281008.php

        The actual document:

        http://www.catholica.com.au/breakingnews/Episcopal_Questionnaire_08.pdf

  6. Joel Walkley

    I am skeptical about how open and honest dialog can be achieved with an anonymous survey. I love the idea of accountability, but it needs to be a team effort (not one-way).

    In secular situations how many employees receive anonymous evaluations from those to whom they are accountable? Or perhaps this is meant to be an forum for collective complaints.

    Reply
    1. Claire Mathieu

      Teaching evaluations are common in US universities. Usually organized by the university administration but sometimes also by students, who may have their own system for collecting information about teachers and courses. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_Review_(Brown_University) for example.)

      Reply
  7. Bill deHaas

    Rita and Claire – your exchange caught my attention. I continue to find myself unable to understand why more US catholics are not speaking out; why so many US priests say nothing unless it is behind closed doors.

    That being said; here are some more direct questions:
    – how much time does the bishop spend per week on fundraising; with current and potential donors?
    – how much time does the bishop spend with his individual priests? Has he even met everyone of them beyond a general meeting handshake? Has the bishop spent time with every priest in his ministry setting and talked with those he serves?
    – how much time does the bishop spend outside of the diocese traveling?
    – how much time does the bishop spend on ecumenical, social, and local government activities?
    – has the bishop spent time in every school? every hospital? every catholic community center?
    – how would this bishop be ranked by SNAP, Call to Action?
    – what is his approach to minorities, immigration, the economy, the “cultural wars”?

    Reply
    1. G. Michael McGuire

      I was with you until your last two questions: a high rating by SNAP and CALL TO ACTION (at least the members of those organizations I’m familiar with) would impress me in the WRONG direction. Sorry.

      Most of us over the age of 55 stopped listening long ago to the simplistic social policy statements pumped out non-stop from the USCCB palace in DC: the mantra “Jesus was an illegal immigrant, you know,” is the kind of nonsense that is really an insult to the intelligence of anyone who lives, as I do, in the inner city; the blissfully nuance-free pro-union statement during the Wisconsin fracas was similarly unhelpful; and as for “culture wars” – Exhibit A: the beginning of the day long Ted Kennedy canonization presided over by the Cardinal Archbishop of Boston; Exhibit Z: the ending of said canonization presided over by the Cardinal Archbishop Emeritus of Washington, D.C. A little more “counter cultural” (i.e., a little less liberal Democrat) social witness would be a pleasant surprise!

      Reply
    2. Jeffrey Pinyan

      – how much time…
      – how much time…
      – how much time…
      – how much time…

      That time adds up. How many hours a day/week/month/year extra do bishops get? It reminds me of the old “perfect pastor” joke…

      The perfect pastor preaches exactly 10 minutes. He condemns sin roundly but never hurts anyone’s feelings. He works from 8am until midnight and is also the church janitor. The perfect pastor makes $40 a week, wears good clothes, drives a good car, buys good books, and donates $30 a week to the church. He is 29 years old and has 40 years experience. Above all, he is handsome.

      The perfect pastor has a burning desire to work with teenagers, and he spends most of his time with the senior citizens. He smiles all the time with a straight face because he has a sense of humor that keeps him seriously dedicated to his church. He makes 15 home visits a day and is always in his office to be handy when needed.

      The perfect pastor always has time for church council and all of its committees. He never misses the meeting of any church organization and is always busy evangelizing the unchurched.

      Reply
      1. Bill deHaas

        yes, but you have just minimized the point of evaluation, accountability, and feedback.

  8. Karl Liam Saur

    The questions seem more corporate than Christian. The kind of things that one finds mired in committee-speak.

    How about this single question: How effective is the bishop as an icon of Christ?

    Reply
  9. Karl Liam Saur

    (Sorry. I forgot to change the login from the original incorrect login when I switched browsers.)

    Reply
  10. Myron Patterson

    What a novel idea!! When will the form be available on this side of the pond?

    Reply
  11. Anthony Ruff, OSB Avatar
    Anthony Ruff, OSB

    I have very mixed feelings about this initiative. The questions are incomplete and one-sided. What about preaching the Gospel, in-season and out? To give one example. I also think that this is not a good forum or medium. Although I know the originators are sincere and highly dedicated Catholics who honestly believe in this effort, it still has something of “publicity stunt” about it. Basically, I don’t think things like this are how we should do business in the Church.

    But I posted it because I think it’s newsworthy and says something important. Namely: laypeople are so frustrated, and the hierarchy is so lacking in credibility, that it has come to this. Sigh.

    awr

    Reply
    1. Gerard Flynn

      It would be interesting to see a copy of the questionnaire circulated by nuncios to trusted laypeople and clerics for the purpose of rating candidates for the episcopal ministry. And it would be very interesting to compare it with this initiative.

      I’d suspect the questions are quite probing.

      In Ireland we have a Rate My Teacher website. Why not a Rate My Bishop one?

      Reply
    2. Jeffrey Herbert

      Thank you Fr. Ruff;

      You said exactly what I was thinking, and I apologize as this will likely score no points for you here!

      When our Pastor recieves “anonymous” comments of any kind, they go right to the “anonymous comment file”, which is emptied daily by the maintenance man! If you have something meaningful to say, sign your name.

      The origins of this effort from an individual of the People’s Party is also a bit telling. Meaning no disrespect, but is this simply an effort to get the religious expressions of a political agenda into the news?

      I think we have to keep in mind that Bishops and clergy are not politicians… we do not elect them and though they are “accountable” , they are not bound to “vote the way that we want” in the same way that elected officials are. They are accountable to uphold and promote the teachings of the church and abide by those same teachings as an example. When they fail to do so, they sin as we all sin…. there is no process for a recall petition though, which is what this seems to be heading towards.

      Reply
  12. Ceile De

    Man bites dog. I agree with Fr Ruff.
    Where is not only preaching the Gospel, but preaching it in its entirety, including the difficult bits? Where is teaching all of the church’s message? Ensuring availability of all sacraments to the faithful without distortion? In other words, the religious, less sociological side.
    I also worry about the forum or medium – but perhaps the laity aren’t so hot themselves, Fr Ruff. It’s easy to blame the clergy for everything. If they just told us to do our own thing, God loves everything we do, and the only sin is environmental damage and corproate greed, they’d get approval ratings over 90% because it makes us feel good without demanding anything of us.

    Reply
  13. Fritz Bauerschmidt

    From 15+ years of experience with student evaluations, I’d have to say that such an evaluation could only be of very limited value.

    Reply
  14. Bill deHaas

    Agree with Fr. Ruff, Ceile, and Dean/Deacon Fritz….but, some type of transition to leadership accountability for bishops and pastors needs to begin (just not in such a public forum). Involvement and feedback (confidential) from the community is a necessity.

    Reply
  15. crystal watson

    Most of us do have our job performance regularly evaluated against criteria, the evaluating being done by the boss. I guess we lay people are not the bosses of the clergy but it would be interesting to see evaluations done for once by those served instead.

    Reply
  16. Fritz Bauerschmidt

    One problem I see with student evaluations is the way they can play into a consumerist mentality, so that they become like those little cards you see in not-very-good restaurants that give you the opportunity to rate your server. Such anonymous evaluations can foster the idea that you are paying for a service and should have the opportunity to rate how satisfied you are with the service you have received. I just don’t think fostering such a mentality is good for the Church (or for higher education).

    Reply
    1. Jack Rakosky

      Unfortunately there is no way to avoid consumerism, because there is an economic relationship in which some people (consumers) are paying for the services of some other people (professionals, whether they be religious professionals or educational professionals).

      The reality is that Catholic consumers are walking away from these services in droves, and church management is simply providing services to fewer people at fewer locations for the same or greater money per person served. That tells me that church managers are businessmen who are more interested in the bottom line than in rescuing lost sheep. We consumers should not reward management for their failure to provide high quality services and to be interested in rescuing lost consumers.

      The evidence from the Vibrant Parish Life survey is that people rank both of their top priorities, liturgy and community, half way down on the list of being well done. Catholics in the pew have their priorities correct, love of God and love of neighbor. They also know what is really being done well, i.e. buildings and facilities.

      I find it very interesting that church professionals on this blog, priests and laity, know about Survey Monkey and how to collect data when it comes to their own self interests, e.g. the opinions of their peers, but have not shown much interest in collecting data from people in the pews.

      However the people in the pews are aware of Survey Monkey, and they have their websites and communications systems, too. So bishops and pastors who do not care to know what the people think, should think again. They may not like the questions consumers ask with Survey Monkey nor the answers they collect. My advice to church management and pastoral staffs is to find out how to use Survey Monkey to serve their customers, especially those who consume few services. They might even find it financially worthwhile.

      Reply
  17. Anthony Ruff, OSB Avatar
    Anthony Ruff, OSB

    I agree with all this, Fritz, but I have also had good experiences of getting helpful data from students that has improved my teaching. I’m impressed that students (sometimes) do know the difference, and can state what helped them learn and what didn’t – and they don’t just write as consumers who want it ‘their’ way.
    awr

    Reply
    1. Fritz Bauerschmidt

      I should say that I too have learned useful things from student evaluations. But what I learn is often not what the students think they are telling me.

      Reply
      1. Ceile De

        This reminds me of when I studied Japanese – some students complained that the grammar was too hard. Perhaps the teachers failed to be ‘pastoral’ by refusing to regularie the irregular verbs to make it easier for the students to get better grades…

  18. Todd Flowerday

    If evaluations were treated seriously, they would be taken seriously. Laypeople are as qualified as any group to contribute. The content of evaluation always testifies as to its quality. Anybody with two fingers or two toes can check a box or circle a number. But even a “student” can write an essay to back up checks and circles. And should.

    That said, a serious tool would be based on the Vatican II document Christus Dominus, at least as a start.

    If we lived in an ecclesial climate free of political or petty repercussions, then yes, obviously, a signed evaluation is clearly ideal. Unfortunately, the episcopacy from the pope on down have proved unable to respect honest feedback. I can understand the desire for anonymity, and I lament it. Trust must be earned.

    Reply
  19. Tom Poelker

    G. Michael McGuire :

    Most of us over the age of 55 stopped listening long ago to the simplistic social policy statements pumped out non-stop from the USCCB palace in DC: … A little more “counter cultural” (i.e., a little less liberal Democrat) social witness would be a pleasant surprise!

    Is there a name for putting one’s politics in judgment over what is taught by one’s faith?

    Sounds like a kind of idolatry or some other version faith in something other than Christianity.

    I know some people in practice put their politics above their faith, but this is the first time I have seen someone actually advocate doing so.

    Reply
    1. G. Michael McGuire

      Sorry, Tom, but I’m not willing to concede that every social policy statement that comes out of the USCCB in DC represents “what is taught by the faith.” Some of it represents the “politics” of the people putting out the statements. The Left-leaning bureaucrats of the Catholic DC establishment, you will recall, were responsible for the donations of the faithful funding various ACORN escapades. When a diocesan bishop tells Catholic ICE agents to disobey their orders, or the professed religious Sister who runs the Catholic Hospital Association is rewarded for her lobbying efforts with a Presidential bill-signing pen (even when that legislation fudges on the issue of taxpayer funds being used for abortions), we’re well out of “what the faith teaches” and into “what a liberal Democrat Catholic believes the faith teaches.”

      My repudiation of other people’s political opinions, people in the DC Catholic bureaucracy who issue social policy statements in the name of the bishops, hardly makes me the first person to put his politics over his faith. It just makes me someone rejecting someone else’s doing so, but from a different political stance than the bureaucracy.

      I also consider it a bad decision for what is arguably the premier Catholic college in the country to give an honorary doctorate of laws to a politician who voted three times against the Born Alive Infant Protection Act in the Illinois state senate; and for two Cardinal Archbishops to preside over the day long obsequies of a United States Senator who spent the greater part of his political career fighting against national laws that coincided with Catholic teaching regarding the sanctity of human life, and this quite apart from the rewriting of the official funeral liturgy that accompanied these rites. These opinions also do not indicate a placing of my politics above “what the faith teaches,” indeed I interpret them as upholding what the faith teaches.

      Reply
      1. Tom Poelker

        Another exaggeration on your part, to add “every” to my thoughts.

        About the rest of this political screed: It all seems rather arrogant for you to put your completely political judgments above those of what the bishops put forth as teaching.

        You offer political positions to reject Scriptural based teaching. You cite incidents and anecdotes rather than deal with what is taught. You make unprovable generalizations. Because you are coming from a political position, you accuse those with whom you disagree of being political.

        I see nothing in your reply which you could possibly establish on any but politically ideological grounds.

        This seems like a nearly perfect example of cafeteria Catholicism and based on your political tastes.

        Have you read any of the following?
        Rerum Novarum
        Quadagesimo Anno
        Mater et Magistra
        Pacem in Terris
        Gaudium et Spes
        Populorum Progressio
        Laborem Exercens

        These are all from Rome, not Washington.

        This sort of thing is exactly why it is important to have liturgy in clear rather than sacral language. With a generally unknown or sacral version of language, it is too easy to separate one’s “worship” and “faith culture” from the other compartments of one’s life, such as politics.

        Regarding protecting immigrants, do you think the proposed treatment of Hispanics is any different from how American Catholic clergy protected the Irish when they were the despised foreign papists?

      2. G. Michael McGuire

        Tom,
        First: You generalized in your characterization of me: I simply responded that not every document out of DC qualifies as “de fide.”

        Secondly: You’re hardly in a position to judge me as arrogant when you condescendingly (one of the least attractive characteristics of the Left) ask if I’ve read the social teachings of the Church. I might just as well ask you and some of the leftist bureaucrats in DC if they’ve read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Let me assure you: I’m at least as smart as you are, and maybe even smarter than some of the authors of different “position papers,” “statements,” and “for immediate release” items I’ve read from DC.

        Third: What “incidents” and “anecdotes” are you talking about? Did the things I cite not happen? Do they not say at least something about what the people involved believe?

        Finally: as long as you have Cardinals canonizing a philandering proponent of abortion-on-demand, professed religious lobbying for the support of Catholic healthcare personnel for public programs that fund abortion, and the soon-to-be-graduated students of university named for the Immaculate Mother of God cheering a man who announces to them that the most important thing to remember about faith is that it admits of doubt, you can keep your accusations of “Cafeteria Catholicism” on YOUR side of the aisle. You take care of your colleagues there and you’ll be busy twenty-four hours a day.

    2. G. Michael McGuire

      My mother was an immigrant; my father third generation. My maternal grandparents were legal immigrants, through Ellis Island; we have a copy of immigration agent’s form, the name and address of the family to whom they were going in New Jersey; even the amount of money they had with them upon arrival: $20! I know of no Catholic who has any problem with legal immigrants; my home parish, built by one immigrant group, is now predominantly of another immigrant group, with liturgies in both languages and, on some feastdays in both. No problem. As the Catechism teaches, citizens who obey laws established for the good order of society (and that are not sinful), who give an honest day’s work for an honest day’s pay, and raise their children in the love of God and neighbor build up the human family and hasten the coming of God’s Kingdom.

      Reply
  20. Eileen Russell

    What “incidents” and “anecdotes” are you talking about? Did the things I cite not happen? Do they not say at least something about what the people involved believe?

    The whole ACORN debacle was a farce. You have your point of view, but don’t cite lies. The effort to shut down ACORN was effective, but still deceit. The whole incident does, in fact, say something about what the people involved believe. And in what the believing people are involved.

    Reply
    1. G. Michael McGuire

      Hey, Eileen: BACK OFF with the accusation of LIES, OK? Unless you want to go to the trouble of proving to me whether or not the ALL of the accusations, indictments, and indeed convictions of ACORN workers and ex-workers in multiple States for felony voter fraud and associated offenses were all lies. I’ll spare other readers the endless list which is readily available online.

      If you’re referring to the videos, the only “deceit” was that the “characters” were playing roles: the willingness of ACORN counselors to help an underage prostitution ring get up and running with taxpayer money was pretty straightforward and, as you said, says something about what they believe. That kind of “gotcha” journalism was perfected by the Left, by the way (e.g., Michael Moore), and it is amusing to see their annoyance when it’s used against them.

      More to the point here: the Catholic Campaign for Human Development funded more than 320 ACORN projects with grants totaling more than $7.3 million during the last 10 years. And all that suddenly ground to a halt, didn’t it? Why do you think that might be?

      So easy on the LIES accusation, OK? The corruption spawned and sponsored by ACORN is more than “my point of view,” and certainly not “lies.” In fact, speaking of lies, I’d welcome YOUR apology.

      I’d also welcome PRAY TELL being a blog about Catholic liturgy and not a forum for defending the social views of those Catholics who happen to be Democrats. Not all Catholics are.

      Reply
      1. Russ Wheeler

        Michael,

        You mention convictions of ACORN workers and ex-workers in multiple states. Could you refer me to the jurisdictions where those convictions were obtained? Courts and case numbers would be especially useful. This information would help me with a project I’m working on that is unrelated to Church matters. The last time I researched this about a year ago, I could not find a record of any convictions of ACORN employees or former employees.

        Thanks.

      2. G. Michael McGuire

        Well for starters: Go to the website of the Wisconsin Department of Justice, and you’ll find the sentencing information for Maria Miles for falsely procuring voter registration, arising out of the 2008 Presidential Election. She worked as a Special Registration Deputy for ACORN (report dated Dec 6, 2010). 2010 seems to have been a banner year for these investigations to have reached fruition: Google, then research State websites to verify. But then, I’m sure you already know that.

      3. Russ Wheeler

        Michael,

        Thank you. I wasn’t aware of this case. I’ll have a look.

  21. Eileen Russell

    I’m sorry. I thought you brought up ACORN.

    Reply
    1. G. Michael McGuire

      I did. And I stand by what I said about them.

      Reply
  22. Sebastian Pollock

    When someone says “Let me assure you, I’m at least as smart as you are”, (a) they quite clearly aren’t, or they wouldn’t need to say it, and (b) no amount of demonstrating to them that they aren’t will change their own opinion of themselves.

    That way no dialogue lies, alas.

    Reply
    1. G. Michael McGuire

      Cute, Sebastian, really cute. But every once in a while, you need to remind the arrogant, condescending Left, that, despite their pretensions to the contrary, they’re not the smartest people in the room. The person to whom I was responding insinuated that I had never read the papal encyclicals on social justice. I have. But, since no one was speaking to you anyway, is there any reason you felt the need to come after me? Boring Friday night? Bad mood? Off your meds?

      Reply
      1. Sebastian Pollock

        “you need to remind the arrogant, condescending Left” — by being arrogant and condescending yourself? Surely not. I came after you because you deserved it, as your final words demonstrate only too clearly. This forum should be a place of dialogue, not of put-downs by people who think they are smart. There’s a way of phrasing things which you haven’t yet grasped, it seems.

  23. Chris Grady

    Sebastian Pollock :
    “ This forum should be a place of dialogue, not of put-downs by people who think they are smart.”

    What, then, Sebastian, of “wit” in “woship, wit & wisdom” – or is it only “wit” (or, for that matter, wisdom, or indeed worship) if you think it is?

    Reply
  24. Tom Poelker

    Sebastian Pollock :

    When someone says “Let me assure you, I’m at least as smart as you are”, (a) they quite clearly aren’t, or they wouldn’t need to say it, and (b) no amount of demonstrating to them that they aren’t will change their own opinion of themselves.
    That way no dialogue lies, alas.

    Sebastian,
    Thank you for saying this.
    I was overwhelmed by the difficulty of explaining the obvious.
    Tom

    Reply
  25. Tom Poelker

    G. Michael McGuire :

    Cute, Sebastian, really cute. But every once in a while, you need to remind the arrogant, condescending Left, that, despite their pretensions to the contrary, they’re not the smartest people in the room. The person to whom I was responding insinuated that I had never read the papal encyclicals on social justice. I have. But, since no one was speaking to you anyway, is there any reason you felt the need to come after me? Boring Friday night? Bad mood? Off your meds?

    McGuire, you’ve misquoted me again.

    It would be a lot easier to discuss your positions if you wrote about what people actually said instead of whatever opinion of others it set off for you.

    It would also be easier to be polite to you if you did not introduce political arguments and claim them to be religious. The documents I cited were resources for you to check as to your claimed religious foundation for your political positions.

    This entire thread you have precipitated belongs on another blog, not one concerning liturgy.

    I think you owe me an apology for calling me arrogant and condescending just because you disagree with my stand.

    Do not imply to me what you merely feel and can not prove from my actual words. There are no negative statements about you in my text, just asking you to keep the political off this liturgy blog.

    Just because you think the “left” is in general arrogant and condescending does not justify you insulting me personally.

    Reply
    1. G. Michael McGuire

      “I was overwhelmed by the difficulty of explaining the obvious.”

      That’s arrogance (if said by someone on the Right; when declared by your own good and righteous and enlightened self, of course, it’s just a neutral statement of fact).

      I think it’s arrogance.

      But I agree with you: this blog isn’t the place for this sort of thing. I think I’ve made my point: you don’t have to be a member of “Catholics for Obama” or the Democrat Party to post here.

      You have yourself a wonderful life, and we’ll catch up with each other at the General Judgment.

      Reply
  26. Tom Poelker

    Only comments with a full name will be approved.

    G. Michael McGuire :

    “I was overwhelmed by the difficulty of explaining the obvious.”
    That’s arrogance (if said by someone on the Right; when declared by your own good and righteous and enlightened self, of course, it’s just a neutral statement of fact).
    I think it’s arrogance.
    But I agree with you: this blog isn’t the place for this sort of thing. I think I’ve made my point: you don’t have to be a member of “Catholics for Obama” or the Democrat Party to post here.
    You have yourself a wonderful life, and we’ll catch up with each other at the General Judgment.

    The obvious and the arrogant is that you think a statement of your opinion is the same as a statement of fact.

    When you begin to back your opinions by documentation or logic as do Zaremba and Pinyan, it will sound less arrogant.

    Reply

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